Wikibooks:Requests for undeletion/BDSM

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BDSM[edit source]

BDSM in deletion log

When I first encountered BDSM, I did not know what the text was about. Wiktionary saved me; wikt:BDSM refers to "sexual practices or activities involving bondage, discipline, sadism, or masochism". At the time, I was concerned that the text described mostly as a repository for documents outside the scope of Wikipedia.

However, Jguk (who deletes much junk from Wikibooks) deleted it with the reason "not suitable for wikibooks". Since I do not know any apparent reason to delete it (maybe I should have read the text closer?), I ask for a better explanation of the reason of deletion, or possibly an undeletion. --Kernigh 06:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me explain. This book stated its aim as follows: "This WikiBook is created so that people in the BDSM community can work collaborativly on documents which have value to the community, but which don't satify the Wikipedia criteria of "Having been published"." As such, it was not intended to be a textbook, having the appearance for being more like an online magazine or discussion forum, and it was intended solely to include material that breached wikipedia's no original research (and also verifiability) policies. Section 2.6.2 of Wikibooks:What is Wikibooks states: "Wikibooks hosts instructional resources. Wikibooks modules are not...primary research in any field — Wikibooks is not a place to publish primary research such as proposing theories and solutions, original ideas, defining terms, coining words, et cetera. In short, Wikibooks is not for original research. If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in normal peer-reviewed journals, or elsewhere on the web, such as at Academia Wikicity."
As a secondary point (and as noted above, I believe it clearly meets the deletion criteria without this point), there is also the question as to whether it would really be appropriate for us as a website to have such material (as outlined in the aim of the BDSM wikibook) when we are also preparing material directly targeted at 8 to 12 year olds (in Wikijunior). To my mind a serious academic textbook on sexology would be ok to have on wikibooks (it would meet all the WB:WIW, it would cover subjects studied by accredited learning institutions) and it would also be of limited interest to non-adults, who would be put off by the style of the academic text!). The proposals for the BDSM wikibook fall far short of this, and set it out more as a discussion forum for members of the BDSM community to share experiences, Jguk 07:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I endorse the deletion decision. The BSDM page was not intended to be a textbook or instructional material, and therefore falls outside the scope of Wikibooks. Gentgeen 09:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • View. Jguk's first reason sounds like a sufficient one for deletion. I'm at least mildly suspicious of his second reason. Assuming the first reason applies, the second is unnecessary, suspicious or otherwise. However, as I have never seen the book, I can only vote to view it. --JMRyan T E C 17:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
At JMRyan's request I have restored the page pending completion of this discussion, Jguk 18:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have restored the one subpage, BDSM/Guidelines for BDSM Conflict Resolution, for viewing. --Kernigh 22:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen this and voted below. --JMRyan T E C 17:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let me elaborate: This might be instructional material, but i cannot possibly imagine an accredited institution teaching a course on BDSM. Except perhaps a course that teaches about the societal implications of BDSM, or the dangers of BDSM, or the effect of BDSM porn on children, etc. What we have here is a How-To guide on participating in a particular sexual fetish. This is not appropriate for any classroom, and is not a textbook so much as it is a wayward entry to Penthouse Forum. As per wikibooks policy and statements by jimbo, both recent and past, this book should remain deleted, and off wikibooks servers forever. The BDSM pages have been temporarily undeleted for 1 week now, and I am going to re-delete them, hopefully forever, pending a decision here. I hope that the other admins agree with my reading of policy on the matter, and act to keep this one deleted regardless of the outcome of this vote. --Whiteknight(talk)(projects) 14:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted First, I will mention that I am not familiar with the Wikipedia rule "Having been published", because I rarely edit Wikipedia. – Second, the concerns about original research do not seem valid to me. After examining the content (again) it appears that the BDSM confederation of modules was intended to be a how-to guide, targeted toward BDSM participants, starting with BDSM/Guidelines for BDSM Conflict Resolution. It is evident to me that BDSM is not a new idea, not a newly coined word, and it does not seem that the BDSM modules were inventing new forms of BDSM. "Original research" is more of a problem at Bourne Shell Scripting/Cookbook than it is here. — However, even though I am dissatisifed with Jguk's main explanation, by now I have read enough documents to know that BDSM is always dangerous, and the only goal is entertainment. (I did not understand it so well when I requested this VFU.) I can say that there are things in the s.s.b-bdsm FAQ that I might not want to see on Wikibooks. Also, with most of the BDSM information on Wikipedia, it seems to be that editors will add the best content only to Wikipedia, as happened with Doom and some of our other computer game books. --Kernigh 22:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted Although I cannot believe that BSDM is "always dangerous" and do not believe that Jguk's second argument flies, I do agree that the book as it stands is a textbook. As such it does not fall within our guidlines. Theresa knott 05:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep deleted. I'm not convinced that this couldn't be made into a textbook. What I saw had a cover page plus one content page. The content page was written from the POV of a BSDM participant, but that aspect of it didn't seem unfixable. This is different than "How to Cheat" and some other books documenting disreputable behavior. "How to Cheat" offered such gems as don't do it when the proctor is looking. The whole thing was just silly. But here, we could, given a lot of work on the book, get a window into a world most of us never glimpse outside really bad jokes. That's not the kind of book the cover page says they are trying to create, but that is the kind of book it could become. The original research issue could be a problem depending on how well or badly the BDSM world has previously been documented. In short, I don't think it is worth keeping in its persent form, but I see the possibility of someone taking it under his/her wing to make it worth keeping. I see that Kernigh left a message for User:Sbower, the creator of this book; I have left a message for its other contributor. Perhaps they can convince us that they can make this into a textbook without serious problems with the no original research rule? --JMRyan T E C 17:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is (yet another) book that falls outside our "textbook" mandate, but may fall within a mandate that includes howtos. BDSM is a (generally) legal and consensual activity that could benefit from documentation of this nature. I am concerned about our vague policy in this area, and especially the vague instruction from wikimedia besides the mighty hand of Jimbo meddling with a VFD or two. If we're just doing textbooks, we should just do textbooks and get rid of the howtos. Otherwise we need better criteria over what sort of howtos we allow, as it is inconsistent to keep things like How_to_beat_a_speeding_ticket, but not this (or what this could become). Kellen T 22:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - The Aim of wikibook is to spread free knowledge.Knowledge about every aspect of life, religion, world etc. And remember this is wikibooks not wikitextbook and thus is meant to cover topic ranging from newton's law of motion to BDSM, nudity etc . I don't see any merit in this deletion.Prav001 (discuss • contribs)
  • Undelete - The BDSM community can use such book as a unified basis of knowledge, so those who have been around for several years can share information about safety , about well being , and not necessarily the whole content is directly targeting to become of sexual / kinky nature.S.Raymaker
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