Difference between revisions of "Wikibooks:Reading room/General"

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Welcome to the '''General reading room'''. On this page, Wikibookians are free to talk about the Wikibooks project in general. For proposals for improving Wikibooks, see the [[../Proposals/]] reading room.
 
Welcome to the '''General reading room'''. On this page, Wikibookians are free to talk about the Wikibooks project in general. For proposals for improving Wikibooks, see the [[../Proposals/]] reading room.
 
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== Producing refereed academic papers on Wikibooks ==
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== Editing News #2—2016 ==
 
For some time I have had the idea of using the internet to produce academic papers in the public domain. Wikibooks might be the place to do this. The idea is that an author submits a new draft paper. People can jump in to make additions and possibly add their names as co-authors. People can jump in to edit and add their names as editors. When the paper has sufficient content it can be frozen for refereeing. Suitably qualified referees can be invited (or maybe just drop in) to determine if the paper is suitable for publication. If it is suitable it can be sent to Wikisource and linked (if appropriate) to articles in Wikipedia. Wikibooks academic papers would need a special format.
 
 
The advantages of this system is that the papers would be created and remain in the public domain. Publication might also be faster than through the established printed journals. Academics like myself want the widest possible distribution of their work but this gets blocked because the publishers of academic journals normally take the copyright of the papers away from the authors.
 
 
I am new to Wikibooks and Wiki space in general, so I apologize if I'm way off track with this. It is just an idea, hopefully it can gain substance if other people are interested. [[User:Logicalgregory|Logicalgregory]] ([[User talk:Logicalgregory|talk]]) 07:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
Thanks for all the comments. It seems that wikibooks is not the place for this idea. However, I will continue the thread for a moment longer, if only for the benefit of others who are lost in wikispace. At wikia I found a page that has been set up to do almost exactly what I proposed. It seems to have been in existence for some six years and, although all the infrastructure is there, there is virtually no content. It seems that an "academic publishing" page is just too general to attract participants. It needs to be more focused on a specific area of study. Also, I think it needs a strong group to start it off. I do not think it can be started by just one person with the expectation that others will just drop in (it will end up as dead space). I might pursue the idea further at wikiversity if I can put a group together.[[User:Logicalgregory|Logicalgregory]] ([[User talk:Logicalgregory|talk]]) 09:12, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:What you are describing sounds more like [http://academia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Wikia]. We have a [[WB:OR|policy]] against original research here on Wikibooks. [[User:Recent Runes|Recent Runes]] ([[User talk:Recent Runes|talk]]) 09:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 
::Please, I beg of you, let's not advertise for Wikia, as that is a conflict of interest with the Wikimedia Foundation board. As for the "[[WB:OR|policy]] against original research" here, I personally think that is something that ought to be reconsidered by the community. Having now carefully read that policy, I am wondering if [[World_War_II/Strategic_Bombing_in_Europe|this recent output]] is actually in violation of Wikibooks policy? -- [[User:Thekohser|Thekohser]] ([[User talk:Thekohser|talk]]) 19:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Oh, don't worry about "advertising" on this level. It is traditional to suggest to people, before nuking their silly contributions, to point out other places that will take them, "this is better for Wikia" is quite a bit nicer than "get that crap out of here!" We could also point out, for example, [http://mywikibiz.com MyWikiBiz]. Just don't ''you'' point it out, okay! More to the point, though, is that Wikiversity is a great place for original research, it is explicitly allowed, just don't try to present it as a scientific consensus, for example, if it isn't. But you can put up a page on your Favorite Crackpot Theory, note that it's not accepted, and then pretty much say what you want as long as it isn't illegal or fattening. At least that's the theory, the execution of the theory gets a bit ragged sometimes, but we are working on that.
 
 
:::As to your brilliant paper, while one might quibble with some words at the end, one might also allow an author some flexibility, especially if the conclusions reached are obvious, and Wikibooks policy on Original Research seems far more flexible than that of Wikipedia. In the end -- in both places! -- the real standard is consensus, there is no way around that unless the Foundation wants to step in, i.e., no way, so my advice: remember to be nice! Now, if I could just take my own advice..... --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:[[v:|Wikiversity]] is a good place for this, which is still within the Wikimedia projects. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;">[[User:Darklama|<font color="midnightblue">dark</font>]][[User_talk:Darklama|<font color="green">lama</font>]]</span> 14:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 
::Yes. My opinion is that it is possible that Wikiversity could establish a peer review process, and that it could become, effectively, a publisher of peer-reviewed papers. There are quite a few obstacles to overcome, though. I don't expect to see this soon. However, papers can be written there, just as students and teachers may present, in classes, original research. An exciting idea is the collaborative writing of papers that might be submitted for publication elsewhere, under normal peer review. I've even set up a lab resource at [[Wikiversity:Cold fusion/Lab|Cold fusion/Lab]], something that would be completely inappropriate on Wikipedia or here. I work extensively on Wikiversity because of the great academic freedom that is the ideal there. It's largely realized, and there have only been problems arising from WMF critics using Wikiversity to criticize WMF projects, and then individuals criticized, often politically powerful within the WMF community, and their friends, also came to oppose, sometimes also in disruptive ways. The use (for "Wiki studies") is theoretically possible, but will require the establishment of ethical standards, and I wanted Thekohser to be unblocked there precisely so that he could support the development of those standards, from the critic side, and I assume that there will be others who will participate from the "defense." If, absent such standards, he abuses the relative freedom of Wikiversity to prematurely criticize, I will act to prevent it. But I don't expect it to be a problem. He's been very cooperative. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 18:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:: Dear Logicalgregory,
 
:: That sounds like an excellent idea. However, as Darklama and Recent Runes pointed out, other wiki exist that would be an even better place for it than Wikibooks.
 
:: If you are thinking about publishing some particular paper, perhaps it would be even better to post an outline on a wiki dedicated to whatever particular field you are interested in. A few such narrowly-focused wiki are:
 
::* [http://www.scienceofspectroscopy.info/ Science of Spectroscopy wiki]
 
::* [http://openwetware.org/ OpenWetWare wiki: biology]
 
::* [http://renewableenergy.wikia.com/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Design Renewable Energy Design wikia]
 
::* [http://www.sklogwiki.org/ SklogWiki dedicated to thermodynamics and statistical mechanics]
 
::* [http://wiki.biomine.skelleftea.se/wiki/ BioMineWiki: biology and hydrometallurgy]
 
::* [http://usefulchem.wikispaces.com/ UsefulChem Project wiki]
 
::* [http://prettyscience.wikia.com/ Pretty Science Wikia]
 
:: --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] ([[User talk:DavidCary|talk]]) 19:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
As someone who recently repurposed a small portion of his undergraduate honors thesis [[World_War_II/Strategic_Bombing_in_Europe|here on Wikibooks]] (perhaps unwittingly in violation of policy!), I would like to say something. I can attest that there were at least 100 honors papers coming out of Emory University every year in the late 1980's, and one would estimate with near certainty that easily half of them never reached a "digital age" reformatting. It seems an utter waste of talent and labor to '''''not''''' reach out to people with honors research "collecting dust", and ask them (plead with them!) to consider scanning the work for OCR, then releasing it under a free license to share with the rest of the world. Multiply my experience at Emory by at least 200 (or 400, or 800!), to cover the many outstanding universities worldwide that have featured honors papers, etc. We're talking about a great deal of content and information that really should be gathered up and made digital. If not on Wikibooks, why? And where? -- [[User:Thekohser|Thekohser]] ([[User talk:Thekohser|talk]]) 19:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:Not peer-reviewed, but this material would presumably be fine for Wikiversity, no question, and some of it might be okay here as well. It's likely to be of better quality than the average. Great idea, Thekohser. The problem with great ideas is, frequently, too many Chiefs with great ideas and not enough Indians. I'd suggest this as a project on Wikiversity, to get the papers in a place which is pretty safe from deletion based on arguments of POV, etc., and then review them for transfer to Wikibooks. But I have no problem with placement here first, and then a move to Wikiversity if that seems more appropriate at the time. What I don't like is the raw deal of you do all this work on a page or set of pages and then they are deleted because Randy from Boise and a few drive-bys thought it wasn't notable or was something else Bad. (It's hard to imagine a submitted degree thesis or an honor paper that wouldn't be appropriate, at least, for Wikiversity. But the world is big.) --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 
Concerning Thekosher and Abd remarks on undergraduate honors thesis, I am very confused about where papers can be uploaded on the various Wiki Foundation sites. I have a lot of papers that I would like to make more available to the general public. These are undergraduate thesis, Masters thesis, PhD thesis, a collection of working papers published by University Departments, an even larger collection of papers published in academic journals. The copyright of the published papers have been hi-jacked by various publishers, so there seems to be nothing that can be done about these - they will be locked away in print libraries (where nobody will ever read them) until long after I'm dead (which is why I suggested academic papers could be produced on a Wiki). Going one step back, there are the working papers upon which the published papers are based. They are not as polished as the published papers but are a valuable research resource that could be placed in the public domain. Working papers are peer reviewed within a University Department. When I brought up the question publishing these at Wikisource I was told "We would only look at the papers following peer review" by which I understand them to mean that the working papers would have to be peer reviewed again. This requirement would, I think, be difficult to meet because I know of nobody that would be prepared to spend their time reviewing a paper that has already been reviewed. Now Thekosher suggests collecting undergraduate thesis (I do not think this is a bad idea), when papers that are far more developed, and only one step away from being lost for 100 years, have nowhere to go. [[User:Logicalgregory|Logicalgregory]] ([[User talk:Logicalgregory|talk]]) 07:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:If you prefer to stay within the Wikimedia Foundation wikis, then [[v:|Wikiversity]] is the only place that original research is acceptable. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 12:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 
::Having been peer reviewed means the work isn't original research per say. The existing peer reviewed journals where the work was previous published and polished up could be cited as sources. However the papers are probably most useful if preserved as papers, so Wikiversity would be the place for that since papers are a type of educational resource acceptable there, while non-book materials are not meant to hosted at Wikibooks. Anyone could use the papers when made available at Wikiversity as a bases for developing books at Wikibooks, if they cite the journals where the work was peer reviewed. Since copyright seems to be a concern I think confirming permission with OTRS should be done before making the papers available at Wikiversity. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;">[[User:Darklama|<font color="midnightblue">dark</font>]][[User_talk:Darklama|<font color="green">lama</font>]]</span> 15:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:If it is in the Public Domain and has been published in a "verifiable, usually peer-reviewed forum", it is welcome at wikisource. The Wikiproject can be found at [[s:Wikisource:WikiProject Academic Papers]]. -[[User:Arlen22|Arlen22]] ([[User talk:Arlen22|talk]]) 18:18, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:: <s>I think, thought I could be wrong, that wikisource requires the material to be published elsewhere before they will accept it. I suppose this keeps people from posting their rejected papers there straight away without correcting the flaws.</s> [[User:Thenub314|Thenub]][[Special:Contributions/Thenub314|314]] ([[User talk:Thenub314|talk]]) 18:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Goodbook ==
 
 
Please see [[Talk:Main Page]]. Thanks. [[User:Kayau|Kayau]] ([[User talk:Kayau|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/Kayau|email]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kayau|contribs]]) 10:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== We need another bureaucrat ==
 
 
Wikibooks could certainly benefit from another bureaucrat. I think any wiki with only one bureaucrat will suffer from a problem: if a bureaucrat decision is challenged, there is nobody to reverse it. (No really, I know bureaucrats cannot uncheck admin rights, and I don't know if a renaming can be reversed but...) Also, if there are two bureaucrats the bureaucrats can keep an eye on one another to see if they made any 'crat mistakes. However I won't nominate anyone in case the nominee refuses, and other admins who are also, IMO, eligible to become a 'crat take offence. If you think you can become a 'crat, please self-nominate. :) [[User:Kayau|Kayau]] ([[User talk:Kayau|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/Kayau|email]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kayau|contribs]]) 01:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 
:A bureaucrat decision naming a sysop can be questioned and reversed at meta, with a showing of local consensus. I do agree, though, that it's better to have two. It may be more important, though, that a 'crat be highly trusted to remain neutral. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== [[User:Thenub314|Thenub314]]'s bureaucrat nomination ==
 
 
The comment above inspired me to nominate myself as a bureaucrat. As per [[WB:CRAT|policy]] I am advertising my nomination here. [[User:Thenub314|Thenub]][[Special:Contributions/Thenub314|314]] ([[User talk:Thenub314|talk]]) 02:57, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Placement of HTML tags: Wiktionary or Wikibooks? ==
 
 
Hello. I am a Wiktionarian administrator, interested in seeking feedback and opinions from Wikibookians, to solve an issue directly related to both projects.
 
 
There is [[wiktionary:Wiktionary:Beer parlour#colspan, etc.|an ongoing discussion]] about the existence of individual entries for HTML tags. As notable examples, on Wiktionary, there are ''[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hyper_Text_Markup_Language/img Appendix:Hyper Text Markup Language/img]'', ''[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hyper_Text_Markup_Language/h1 Appendix:Hyper Text Markup Language/h1]'' and ''[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hyper_Text_Markup_Language/title Appendix:Hyper Text Markup Language/title]'', to define, respectively, the tags ''img'', ''h1'' and ''title''.
 
   
However, especially since the creation and maintenance of HTML tags at Wiktionary is a fairly new project, it depends on further consensus. All these pages may conceivably be kept or be deleted from Wiktionary, according to the development of possible discussions and/or votes.
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<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
   
One particular argument for deleting these pages from Wiktionary is that there are already pages on Wikibooks, including ''[[HyperText Markup Language/Tag List/img]]'', ''[[HyperText Markup Language/Tag List/option]]'' and ''[[HyperText Markup Language/Tag List/table]]'' for similar purposes, therefore Wiktionarian versions would be redundant.
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''[[m:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor/Newsletter/2016/June|Read this in another language]] [[:m:VisualEditor/Newsletter|Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter]]''
   
Since the particular message "Given this book is a user guide, it is organized around topics from the user's perspective, not around the names of the tags." is displayed at the top of [[HyperText Markup Language/Tag List]], am I right in assuming that individual pages for each HTML tag would be better placed in Wiktionary? Or, perhaps, there are reasons for keeping them at Wikibooks, that I am unaware of?
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<div style="float:right;width:230px;{{#switch:ltr|rtl=float:left;margin-left:0;|#default=float:right;margin-right:0;}}margin-left:1em;border-style:solid;border-width:1px;padding:1em;">
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[[File:VisualEditor-logo.svg|200px|center|alt=VisualEditor]]'''Did you know?'''
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<div class="thumbcaption" style="font-size: 90%;">
   
Thanks in advance. --[[User:Daniel.|Daniel.]] ([[User talk:Daniel.|talk]]) 17:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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It's quick and easy to insert a references list.
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[[File:VisualEditor References List Insert Menu-en.png|alt=Screenshot showing a dropdown menu with many items|center|frameless|150px]]
   
:I would consider that page more of an alphabetical index of tags and the note is indicating that the chapters shown at the root of the book will use those tags as needed based on the functional organization of the book. The book as a whole is based around what kinds of things you want to do with HTML rather than going through each tag in turn. HTML tags are not anything close to what I'd imagine being hosted at Wiktionary and it seems like that's a reach for Wiktionary's scope. I compare [[HyperText Markup Language/Tag List/img]] with [[wikt:Appendix:Hyper Text Markup Language/img]] and the former is far superior. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 17:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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Place the cursor where you want to display the references list (usually at the bottom of the page). Open the "{{int:visualeditor-toolbar-insert}}" menu and click the "{{int:cite-ve-dialogbutton-referenceslist-tooltip}}" icon (three books).
   
:: Since Wiktionary is already more reference-like, it makes sense in that view to put them there. But Wikibooks would be a more logical choice given the content and purpose of Wikibooks itself. I can't, however, imagine that a separate book would be created for the reference of each computer language. Which, in turn, means that if they were to be placed on Wikibooks, they'd necessarily have to form part of some sort of appendix within each wikibook on their respective subjects. In either case, a reference list for HTML as well as for other computer languages is certainly extremely useful. I really think we should at least have references for computer languages ''somewhere'' on Wikimedia. But where, I don't know. [[User:CodeCat|CodeCat]] ([[User talk:CodeCat|talk]]) 18:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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If you are using several groups of references, which is relatively rare, you will have the opportunity to specify the group. If you do that, then only the references that belong to the specified group will be displayed in this list of references.
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Finally, click "{{int:visualeditor-dialog-action-insert}}" in the dialog to insert the {{int:cite-ve-dialogbutton-referenceslist-tooltip}}. This list will change as you add more footnotes to the page.
   
:(edit conflict, above comments by Adrignola and CodeCat not yet read.)That is an interesting question, and one I don't know I have a quick answer to. My feeling is that the tag list you point out is certainly appropriate for the book it is in, that is as an appendix to the textbook on HTML. As to the individual structure of the book, one entry per page seems a bit cumbersome but I usually defer to individual book contributors for how they like to structure their books. So I imagine that the pages are reasonably covered by our scope. I am less familiar with wikitonary's scope, but roughly speaking traditional dictionaries have appendices on all sorts of things (how to convert cups to tablespoons, etc.), and I am not surpirsed that wikitionary has such an appendix. But then again, it really becomes a line as to where the scope begins and ends, this wouldn't be covered in a more traditional dictionary... so, to summarize, I don't know how to feel about these pages at wikitionary, but the pages pointed to in wikibooks are well suited to our scope. I am not sure how to handle the duplication of effort problem. [[User:Thenub314|Thenub]][[Special:Contributions/Thenub314|314]] ([[User talk:Thenub314|talk]]) 18:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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You can read and help translate [[:mw:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor/User guide|the user guide]], which has more information about how to use the visual editor.</div></div>
   
: I think "HyperText Markup Language/Tag List" with all its subpages should be separated again into a standalone book, named along the lines of "HTML Reference". I do not think a reference book should be presented as an appendix of a guidebook; these should be two standalone books instead. On the other subject, this seems to be a Wikibooks material rather than a dictionary one. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|talk]]) 18:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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Since the last newsletter, the [[:mw:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor|VisualEditor Team]] has fixed many bugs. Their workboard is available [[phab:project/board/483/|in Phabricator]]. Their [[:mw:VisualEditor/Current_priorities|current priorities]] are improving support for Arabic and Indic scripts, and adapting the visual editor to the needs of the Wikivoyages and Wikisources.
   
I think "which project" is the wrong thing to focus on. A dictionary explains how to pronounce words, there definitions, and correct grammar uses. Books may have a glossary, which usually only include unfamiliar words that people in the field should know without details usually found in a dictionary. Books should have glossaries. I think what Wiktionarians should focus on is if explaining how to pronounce words, there definitions, and correct grammar uses for programming terms is relevant to Wiktionary's scope. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;">[[User:Darklama|<font color="midnightblue">dark</font>]][[User_talk:Darklama|<font color="green">lama</font>]]</span> 18:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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=== Recent changes ===
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The visual editor is now available to all users at most [[Wikivoyage:|Wikivoyages]]. It was also enabled for all contributors at the French Wikinews.
   
:: Re Dan: Maybe, but the implication is that there will be more than just one reference book. If there is a HTML reference, then we'll also want a reference book for C, Python and so on for every other computer language with a sizable collection of names. [[User:CodeCat|CodeCat]] ([[User talk:CodeCat|talk]]) 20:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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The '''[[:mw:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor/Single edit tab|single edit tab]]''' feature combines the "{{int:vector-view-edit}}" and "{{int:visualeditor-ca-editsource}}" tabs into a single "{{int:vector-view-edit}}" tab. It has been deployed to several Wikipedias, including Hungarian, Polish, English and Japanese Wikipedias, as well as to all Wikivoyages. At these wikis, you can change your settings for this feature in the "{{int:prefs-editing}}" tab of [[Special:Preferences]]. The team is now reviewing the feedback and considering ways to improve the design before rolling it out to more people.
   
:::Wiktionary has developed a consistent format to organize morphemes of multiple languages. I believe it may as well be consistently expanded to include commands, tags and other characteristics of computer codes, that may in turn be further organized by categorization and indexes. For example, once this project reaches a certain level of maturity, a page called [[wikt:Appendix:Control flow statements]] could explain "go to", "for" and "while" of various languages together.
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=== Future changes ===
:::If one particular goal of Wiktionary is to explain the grammar of many natural languages, it may as well conceivably explain the syntax of programming languages similarly. Since Wikibooks has [[Subject:English language]], in addition to the coverage of English from Wiktionary, I assume each project may treat the same subjects from different approaches, without them becoming redundant to each other. --[[User:Daniel.|Daniel.]] ([[User talk:Daniel.|talk]]) 20:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
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The "{{int:Savearticle}}" button will say "{{int:Publishpage}}". This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems. More [[M:Editing/Publish|information is available on Meta]].
   
== Five-year WMF targets ==
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The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining [[:mw:VisualEditor/Rollouts|"Phase 6" Wikipedias]] during the next few months. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at [[:mw:Topic:St8y4ni42d0vr9cv|the feedback thread on mediawiki.org]]. This will affect several languages, including: [[:w:ar: |'''Arabic''']], [[:w:hi: |'''Hindi''']], [[:w:th: |'''Thai''']], [[:w:ta: |'''Tamil''']], [[:w:mr: |'''Marathi''']], [[:w:ml: |'''Malayalam''']], [[:w:ur: |'''Urdu''']], [[:w:fa: |'''Persian''']], [[:w:bn: |'''Bengali''']], [[:w:as: |'''Assamese''']], [[:w:arc: |'''Aramaic''']] and others.
   
There was a thread on the foundation-l mailing list on [[wmf:Resolution:Five-year_targets|five-year Wikimedia Foundation targets]] excluding non-Wikipedia projects. Below are some highlights that would be most relevant for those concerned with Wikibooks. The full postings are linked. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 15:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
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The team is working with the volunteer developers who power Wikisource to provide the visual editor there, for opt-in testing right now and eventually for all users. ([[phab:T138966|T138966]])
   
{{cquote|The vast majority of our users are using Wikipedia and not the other projects, which means even a small improvement to Wikipedia is likely to have more impact than even a large improvement to one of the other projects. Sue was very clear that prioritising Wikipedia only applies to the WMF. The community can, and should, continue to improve the other projects, the WMF just feels that its limited resources are better used where they will have more impact.|||Thomas Dalton|[http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061533.html foundation-l mailing list]}}
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The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. It will look like the visual editor, and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices around September 2016. You can read about this project in a [[mediawikiwiki:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor/Roadmap/Update_2016-06-23|general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list]].
   
{{cquote|It's absolutely not clear to me (and I don't think anyone) that a focused investment in, say, textbook development is actually going to result in predictable payoff in a transformatively larger number of sustainable content contributors. That doesn't mean that there isn't a potential for such an investment to be successful, and it doesn't mean that it's not a risk worth taking.|||Erik Moeller|[http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061608.html foundation-l mailing list]}}
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=== Let's work together ===
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* Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help [[:mw:Citoid/Enabling Citoid on your wiki|set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki]]? Have you written or imported [[:mw:Special:MyLanguage/Help:TemplateData|TemplateData]] for your most important citation templates? <mark>Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor? Please sign up for the new [[:mw:Help:VisualEditor/Community Taskforce|'''VisualEditor Community Taskforce''']].</mark>
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* Learn how to improve the "automagical" [[:mw:citoid|citoid]] referencing system in the visual editor, by creating [[w:en:Zotero|Zotero]] translators for popular sources in your language! Watch the [[Mw:Citoid/Zotero's Tech Talk|Tech Talk by Sebastian Karcher]] for more information.
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If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the [[mail:translators-l|Translators mailing list]] or [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elitre_(WMF)&action=edit&section=new contact us] directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}}
   
{{cquote|But let's not kid ourselves -- transformatively increasing the productivity and success of efforts like Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikisource is not just a matter of tiny injections of bugfixes and extensions here and there. It's a matter of serious assessment of all underlying processes and developing social and technical architectures to support them. I hope that we'll eventually be able to make such investments, but I also think it's entirely reasonable to prioritize lower risk investments.|||Erik Moeller|[http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061608.html foundation-l mailing list]}}
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</div> [[:m:User:Elitre (WMF)]], 17:20, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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:Wow, how extraordinarily depressing. [[User:Thenub314|Thenub]][[Special:Contributions/Thenub314|314]] ([[User talk:Thenub314|talk]]) 17:50, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
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== Open call for Project Grants ==
   
::Yes. It's not surprising to me, however. It just gives me all the more motivation to prove them wrong. Also, a relevant slide from Wikimania 2010, where Erik Moeller above took a look at the other Wikimedia projects besides Wikipedia: [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Beyondencyclopediawikimania2010-100714133959-phpapp02.pdf&page=23 Slide 23]. Slides before and after cover the others, for comparison. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 19:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
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[[File:IEG barnstar 2.png|right|100px]]
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Greetings! The '''[[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:Project|Project Grants program]] is accepting proposals''' from July 1st to August 2nd to fund new tools, research, offline outreach (including editathon series, workshops, etc), online organizing (including contests), and other experiments that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers.
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Whether you need a small or large amount of funds, Project Grants can support you and your team’s project development time in addition to project expenses such as materials, travel, and rental space.
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*[[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:Project/Apply|'''Submit''' a grant request]] or [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:IdeaLab|'''draft''' your proposal]] in IdeaLab
  +
*[[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:IdeaLab/Events#Upcoming_events|'''Get help with your proposal''']] in an upcoming Hangout session
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*'''Learn from examples''' of completed [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:IEG#ieg-engaging|Individual Engagement Grants]] or [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:PEG/Requests#Grants_funded_by_the_WMF_in_FY_2015.E2.80.9316|Project and Event Grants]]
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Also accepting candidates to [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Grants:Project/Quarterly/Committee|join the Project Grants Committee through July 15.]]
   
:Maybe I should get to work again! -[[User:Arlen22|Arlen22]] ([[User talk:Arlen22|talk]]) 01:25, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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With thanks, [[m:User:I JethroBT (WMF)|I JethroBT (WMF)]] 15:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
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:I thought Moeller founded Wikinews... Anyway, but how can the WB community prove them wrong? It's not like WB will get much more traffic even if we make it 100% perfect... [[User:Kayau|Kayau]] ([[User talk:Kayau|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/Kayau|email]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kayau|contribs]]) 10:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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== Save/Publish ==
::Quantity matters as much as quality. -[[User:Arlen22|Arlen22]] ([[User talk:Arlen22|talk]]) 13:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 
   
:::Indeed, I would think that high quality textbooks would attract more readers due to gaining higher rankings in search results. The moral of the above is that if we want to succeed, we have to do it ourselves and the WMF cannot be relied upon for support. We prove them wrong about our prospects by not giving up even if the head honchos have forgotten where Wikipedia once was compared to where it is today. It's apparent that they have not heard the idea that the greater the risk, the greater the reward. As Wikipedia has matured, the potential for greater percentage of growth lies in the other projects. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 13:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
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The [[:mw:Editing|Editing]] team is planning to change the name of the [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Savearticle “<bdi>{{int:Savearticle}}</bdi>”] button to [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Publishpage “'''<bdi>{{int:Publishpage}}</bdi>'''”] and [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Publishchanges “'''<bdi>{{int:Publishchanges}}</bdi>'''”]. “<bdi>{{int:Publishpage}}</bdi>” will be used when you create a new page. “<bdi>{{int:Publishchanges}}</bdi>” will be used when you change an existing page. The names will be consistent in all editing environments.[https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131132][https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139033]
   
::::I think the biggest reason why WP is popular is because it's comprehensive. Whenever I want the basic info about something, I use WP. It's what makes WB less likely to succeed than WP... [[User:Kayau|Kayau]] ([[User talk:Kayau|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/Kayau|email]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kayau|contribs]]) 13:16, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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This change will probably happen during the week of 30 August 2016. The change will be announced in [[:m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News|Tech News]] when it happens.
   
:::::But that is offset by the fact that textbooks are way different than encyclopedias. Something like [[Excel]], [[PHP]], or [[HTML]] wouldn't exist on Wikipedia. -[[User:Arlen22|Arlen22]] ([[User talk:Arlen22|talk]]) 13:36, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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If you are fluent in a language other than English, please check the status of translations at translatewiki.net for [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Publishpage “'''<bdi>{{int:Publishpage}}</bdi>'''”] and [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Publishchanges “'''<bdi>{{int:Publishchanges}}</bdi>'''”].
   
:::::: Well one thing we have going for us is price, the text book for the course I am teaching at the moment is $209 from the book store. Multiply that by the 140 students I am requiring to by the text, times the number of years the course has been running, it is really quite a lot of money. And the book is ''required'', I would love to convince the department to require something free (modulo printing costs) but we have to get the books there first. On the other hand I have seen many departments print and sell notes developed by the faculty, so if we had something that was a suitable replacement it would be possible to convince them. Last I checked university departments are not so in love with publishing companies either. (I mean really! They make minor tweaks every two years so there can be a new edition, which means students cannot by the old books used as easily. It is an amazing racket.)
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The main reason for this change is to avoid confusion for new editors. Repeated user research studies with new editors have shown that some new editors believed that [https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Savearticle “<bdi>{{int:Savearticle}}</bdi>”] would save a private copy of a new page in their accounts, rather than permanently publishing their changes on the web. It is important for this part of the user interface to be clear, since it is difficult to remove public information after it is published. We believe that the confusion caused by the “<bdi>{{int:Savearticle}}</bdi>” button increases the workload for experienced editors, who have to clean up the information that people unintentionally disclose, and report it to the functionaries and stewards to suppress it. Clarifying what the button does will reduce this problem.
:::::: Of course, secondary education and below is a whole different ball game, it would be much more difficult to get a wikibook adopted at that level in the US. [[User:Thenub314|Thenub]][[Special:Contributions/Thenub314|314]] ([[User talk:Thenub314|talk]]) 15:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 
   
:::::::http://www.ck12.org is our main competitor on the secondary education front as it is aiming for approval by California's schools. Their licensing was changed to noncommercial a few months back, but I was able to pull content from their site under the cc-by-sa license before that and upload the PDFs to Commons. There are Creative Commons licensed books and material at http://cnx.org, another competitor. The advantage Wikibooks has over these two is that anyone can improve upon the content easily because this is a wiki. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 16:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
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Beyond that, the goal is to make all the wikis and languages more consistent, and some wikis made this change many years ago. The [[:m:Legal|Legal team]] at the Wikimedia Foundation supports this change. Making the edit interface easier to understand will make it easier to handle licensing and privacy questions that may arise.
   
::::::::It's out of the question that secondary schools use learning materials from free sources such as WB, in a truely commercialised world, except for 'non-traditional' subjects such as [[Hong Kong Senior Secondary Liberal Studies|Liberal Studies]]. However, if the education bureau actually allows such materials to be used (which is highly unlikely), I believe it will be extremely popular. There are repeated complaints about book publishers realeasing a new edition every now and then. Sometimes it's necessary. For example, when we were learning planets in primary school, they had to make a new edition of the science book. However, most of the time the changes can be rather trivial, and like Thenub said it can be rather irritating that old books cannot be used. Also, books can be hard to find, especially 'non-traditional' subjects such as Liberal Studies. That's something they are also complaining about. I think using materials from sources such as WB has neither of these advantages and therefore has potential.
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Any help pages or other basic documentation about how to edit pages will also need to be updated, on-wiki and elsewhere. On wiki pages, you can use the wikitext codes <code><nowiki>{{int:Publishpage}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>{{int:Publishchanges}}</nowiki></code> to display the new labels in the user's preferred language. For the language settings in [[Special:Preferences|your account preferences]], these wikitext codes produce “<bdi>{{int:Publishpage}}</bdi>” and “<bdi>{{int:Publishchanges}}</bdi>”.
:::::::::One major problem we may face is CC-BY-SA. <s>I read in some paper a few years ago that it has been proposed to let CC-BY-SA become an alternative to public domain in Hong Kong law. I'm not sure if they have implemented it though...</s>[http://www.ipd.gov.hk/eng/whats_new/news/creative_commons_1710.pdf it was implemented]. [[User:Kayau|Kayau]] ([[User talk:Kayau|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/Kayau|email]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kayau|contribs]]) 09:37, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Proposing new deletion process ==
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Please share this news with community members who teach new editors and with others who may be interested.
This has been moved to [[Wikibooks:Reading_room/Proposals#Proposing_new_deletion_process|the proposals reading room]]. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Adrignola|Adrignola]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Adrignola|talk]]</small> 12:50, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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</div> [[m:User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 18:03, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
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== Regex ==
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== Deletion ==
   
What regex would I use to remove every ref on a page? -[[User:Arlen22|Arlen22]] ([[User talk:Arlen22|talk]]) 17:19, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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Every book with a lack of enough content (e.g. with a development stage less than 25 percent) should be deleted IF it is abandoned for several years like [[Nuclear Medicine]]. I think this rule can be added to [[Using Wikibooks/Deleting, Undeleting, and Importing]]. [[User:Doostdar|Doostdar]] ([[User talk:Doostdar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Doostdar|contribs]]) 14:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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:Wow, I would find this a good idea if everyone could awake a sleeping project. But as the administrators are the only users who can restore these pages, I believe that deleting them will engender some recreations from the scratch. [[User:JackPotte|JackPotte]] ([[User talk:JackPotte|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/JackPotte|contribs]]) 15:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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:: One thing Wikibooks shares with Wikipedia imho is that there is, and absolutely properly should be, no deadline for completion here. I helped to breathe new life into a Wikijunior book that had lain dormant at an under-25% level for years. It's in the nature of our books that there can be long gaps of time between contributors. I do hope to develop semi-automated tools to help with things like coherently stepping into the weave of an inactive/underdeveloped book. But ''deleting'' such things would be counterproductive. --[[User:Pi zero|Pi zero]] ([[User talk:Pi zero|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pi zero|contribs]]) 22:07, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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:::I think in this case Wikibooks should behave in the same way as Wikipedia. Users should add templates like "<nowiki>Template:Proposed deletion</nowiki>" to incomplete books. Long gaps of time between contributors would decrease the number of active users as we see currently in this project. We are not going to asleep this project for long time, are we? [[User:Doostdar|Doostdar]] ([[User talk:Doostdar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Doostdar|contribs]]) 06:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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::::I've just created [[Nuclear Medicine/Print version]] to have a quick look on the whole book and it doesn't seem totally stubby.
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::::Moreover, I can't see how this could be related to the number of active users, because personally I didn't come here the first time for one book and decided to create another one ex nihilo: I began by continuing an unfinished but respectable work (which was quite much easier for a beginner). [[User:JackPotte|JackPotte]] ([[User talk:JackPotte|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/JackPotte|contribs]]) 07:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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::::This is not a project with hundreds of administrators and tens of thousands of editors. The Proposed Deletion process from WP is inappropriate here for a number of reasons not least because, unlike WP, typically one person edits one book. There are very few collaborative projects. Therefore if someone is away for, say, three months, they could come back and find their work deleted for no reason other than "tidiness". For genuine cases of truly abandoned stubs there is already a process. I for one am completely opposed to any proposal to delete things for being "incomplete" particularly as nothing is ever complete - there's always more to add to any book. [[User:QuiteUnusual|QuiteUnusual]] ([[User talk:QuiteUnusual|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/QuiteUnusual|contribs]]) 07:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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:::::Any way the book is 0 percent developed and the audience should know that the print version is not complete. By the way it does not have a cover page. Maybe it needs preface, index, images, etc. I see no labels that inform me how to read the book or how to edit it while it has been abandoned for years. How do you solve the problem? [[User:Doostdar|Doostdar]] ([[User talk:Doostdar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Doostdar|contribs]]) 13:15, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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:::::: Books tend to have one editor ''at a time''. Projects that have fewer editors like that tend to be more respectful of what was done in the past; one thinks of oneself as collaborating with others who aren't present because they're located in the past or future, a sort of 'consensus across time'. Adopting a book is a Thing here. Part of this is having a lot more respect for relatively incomplete works than a large Wikipedia might. Imho English Wikipedia (the one I have direct experience with) does damage even to ''itself'' by its cultural dismissal of past precedent; even within Wikipedia's own context Wikipedia should do better on that score, and smaller projects have, and need to, maintain a much more respectful attitude toward past contributions. --[[User:Pi zero|Pi zero]] ([[User talk:Pi zero|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pi zero|contribs]]) 13:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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::::Since there is no predefined minimum nor maximum length to a book so you are right. You can keep the book but there's a problem that how should the volunteer author or the reader guess the final length determined for that book or which content is not yet completed? --[[User:Doostdar|Doostdar]] ([[User talk:Doostdar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Doostdar|contribs]]) 14:07, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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:::::I assume that you're right about the fact that <nowiki>{{status|0%}}</nowiki> at the bottom of the wikicode, displays a non-explicit and discrete icon at the top right which says ''0% developped'' on hover (as described into [[Help:Development stages]]). But it could be precised with {{tl|Todo}}. [[User:JackPotte|JackPotte]] ([[User talk:JackPotte|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/JackPotte|contribs]]) 14:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:24, 24 August 2016

Replacement filing cabinet.svgArchivesWikibooks Discussion Rooms
Discussions Assistance Requests
General | Proposals | Projects | Featured books General | Technical | Administrative Deletion | Undeletion | Import | Permissions

Welcome to the General reading room. On this page, Wikibookians are free to talk about the Wikibooks project in general. For proposals for improving Wikibooks, see the Proposals reading room.

Editing News #2—2016[edit]

m:User:Elitre (WMF), 17:20, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Open call for Project Grants[edit]

IEG barnstar 2.png

Greetings! The Project Grants program is accepting proposals from July 1st to August 2nd to fund new tools, research, offline outreach (including editathon series, workshops, etc), online organizing (including contests), and other experiments that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers. Whether you need a small or large amount of funds, Project Grants can support you and your team’s project development time in addition to project expenses such as materials, travel, and rental space.

Also accepting candidates to join the Project Grants Committee through July 15.

With thanks, I JethroBT (WMF) 15:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Save/Publish[edit]

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Deletion[edit]

Every book with a lack of enough content (e.g. with a development stage less than 25 percent) should be deleted IF it is abandoned for several years like Nuclear Medicine. I think this rule can be added to Using Wikibooks/Deleting, Undeleting, and Importing. Doostdar (discusscontribs) 14:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Wow, I would find this a good idea if everyone could awake a sleeping project. But as the administrators are the only users who can restore these pages, I believe that deleting them will engender some recreations from the scratch. JackPotte (discusscontribs) 15:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
One thing Wikibooks shares with Wikipedia imho is that there is, and absolutely properly should be, no deadline for completion here. I helped to breathe new life into a Wikijunior book that had lain dormant at an under-25% level for years. It's in the nature of our books that there can be long gaps of time between contributors. I do hope to develop semi-automated tools to help with things like coherently stepping into the weave of an inactive/underdeveloped book. But deleting such things would be counterproductive. --Pi zero (discusscontribs) 22:07, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
I think in this case Wikibooks should behave in the same way as Wikipedia. Users should add templates like "Template:Proposed deletion" to incomplete books. Long gaps of time between contributors would decrease the number of active users as we see currently in this project. We are not going to asleep this project for long time, are we? Doostdar (discusscontribs) 06:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I've just created Nuclear Medicine/Print version to have a quick look on the whole book and it doesn't seem totally stubby.
Moreover, I can't see how this could be related to the number of active users, because personally I didn't come here the first time for one book and decided to create another one ex nihilo: I began by continuing an unfinished but respectable work (which was quite much easier for a beginner). JackPotte (discusscontribs) 07:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
This is not a project with hundreds of administrators and tens of thousands of editors. The Proposed Deletion process from WP is inappropriate here for a number of reasons not least because, unlike WP, typically one person edits one book. There are very few collaborative projects. Therefore if someone is away for, say, three months, they could come back and find their work deleted for no reason other than "tidiness". For genuine cases of truly abandoned stubs there is already a process. I for one am completely opposed to any proposal to delete things for being "incomplete" particularly as nothing is ever complete - there's always more to add to any book. QuiteUnusual (discusscontribs) 07:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Any way the book is 0 percent developed and the audience should know that the print version is not complete. By the way it does not have a cover page. Maybe it needs preface, index, images, etc. I see no labels that inform me how to read the book or how to edit it while it has been abandoned for years. How do you solve the problem? Doostdar (discusscontribs) 13:15, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Books tend to have one editor at a time. Projects that have fewer editors like that tend to be more respectful of what was done in the past; one thinks of oneself as collaborating with others who aren't present because they're located in the past or future, a sort of 'consensus across time'. Adopting a book is a Thing here. Part of this is having a lot more respect for relatively incomplete works than a large Wikipedia might. Imho English Wikipedia (the one I have direct experience with) does damage even to itself by its cultural dismissal of past precedent; even within Wikipedia's own context Wikipedia should do better on that score, and smaller projects have, and need to, maintain a much more respectful attitude toward past contributions. --Pi zero (discusscontribs) 13:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Since there is no predefined minimum nor maximum length to a book so you are right. You can keep the book but there's a problem that how should the volunteer author or the reader guess the final length determined for that book or which content is not yet completed? --Doostdar (discusscontribs) 14:07, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I assume that you're right about the fact that {{status|0%}} at the bottom of the wikicode, displays a non-explicit and discrete icon at the top right which says 0% developped on hover (as described into Help:Development stages). But it could be precised with {{Todo}}. JackPotte (discusscontribs) 14:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)