User talk:Red4tribe

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Busy

I have been quite busy lately, and will be busy for some time. For this reason, I will not be too active for the next few weeks..


Note: If you post here on my talk page, I will reply to you on your talk page, unless requested otherwise.

Contents

[edit] Welcome!

Welcome, Red4tribe!

Getting started with Wikibooks
  • Wikibooks is a collection of open-source textbooks. Find out what this means.
  • To sign your name (on talk pages), use four tildes, like this: ~~~~
  • For help in using the wiki, see Using Wikibooks.
  • For information about the community here, see Wikibooks Community.
  • Explore, be bold, and have fun!

Come introduce yourself at the new users page. If you have any questions, you can ask there or contact me personally.--Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World History

Red4tribe, I'd like to become a proofreader for the World History Wikibook as well as a contributor to the Renaissance and Ancient History. My qualifications: I'm managing editor for my school newspaper.


[edit] Re:Help

Welcome to Wikibooks, I would be happy to help you! I saw your book, and I put a couple cleanup tags on the page to point out that very problem. Here is what we can do to fix this easily, without having to rewrite everything: 1) Use the move tab at the top of the page to rename it correctly. So you would change a page "PAGENAME" to "Dutch Empire/PAGENAME" 2) on your table of contents, Change the links to say [[Dutch Empire/PAGENAME|PAGENAME]]. They will look the same, but they will point to the correct places.

Also, you should be able to upload images within a few days. It's a restriction that we have because vandals create temporary accounts to upload pornography. It's a lousy restriction for new users, but it saves the whole project a lot of hassle.

If you need anything else, please don't hesitate to ask. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think there was a restriction on it, but I could be mistaken. I'll fix the pages that are in the wrong places right now. Just make extra certain to name the pages correctly until you have the extra tools you need to make mistakes without having to worry! --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I have some information for you. You can create an account at Wikimedia Commons, and you can upload your pictures there immediately. Any pictures on Commons can be used here on Wikibooks directly without having to do anything special. It's just like uploading them here on Wikibooks, except your images can also be used on Wikipedia and other projects as well. Plus, Commons has over 1.5 million pictures, and you might be able to find more pictures for your book that you wouldn't have had otherwise. Check that out and you should be able to add all the pictures you want. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)



[edit] Outpost

Would you please provide a reason for deleting by changing {{delete}} to {{delete|whatever the reason is}} - thanks  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 15:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] re:Dutch Empire

one of the easiest ways to make navigation for your book is by making a template. The easiest templates to make are just a large banner with a link to the front page of the book. Look at Parrot Virtual Machine for an example of a recent book that I've created with a simple banner header. Another way is to provide a mini-TOC at the top of your page with links to all the pages in the book. E-government is one example of this, and Zine Making is another example of the same concept but with a different style. Chess is a good example of a book that uses forward/back links. On each page, there are links to the previous page and the next page in both the upper-right corner of the screen and at the bottom of the page (a "page footer" template). Control Systems is the most "creative" navigation I have ever created myself, it has a combination of links to important pages (TOC, print version, etc), and forward/back links too.

I can definitely help set you up with a good template, just let me know what features you want for it.

Also with the print version, a lot of the templates only look good once they are actually printed. Click "Print preview" to see how things will render. I think you will like what you see! --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 20:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a very nice template! Tell me what colors you want it to use, and maybe link me to a dutch flag image, and I'll try to set it up to fit the dutch book. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 20:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, check out Template:Dutch Empire. It still has the links for the spanish book, but check the colors to see if they are right. Should the red be brighter? --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 20:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Empire

I've been watching you write this, and have been very impressed! I love history, and this book definitely has potential. I don't think it's featured quality quite yet, but it is getting there. And I saw your comment on Whiteknight's page... glad you liked my Spain TOC box! Anything you'd like help with, I'd be glad to work with you on. Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 22:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I will search for information on Suriname, and let you know if I find anything useful. Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 22:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] re:Similar Vandals

Thanks for the heads-up, and thank you for cleaning up after these vandals. If you see any more instances of this, please let me know. I haven't blocked these particular IPs yet, I'm hoping that they come back and give us more information that we can use to block them all.

I've also contacted the "authorities", and have alerted the other projects to look for similar vandalism patterns. Hopefully we can get this whole issue resolved soon. Thanks again! --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 00:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] welcoming

Hey Red4tribe, I'm glad to see you've been welcoming people to Wikibooks. Just a small suggestion: when you're welcoming somebody, it reduces the load on the servers if you substitute the template rather than using it directly. So instead of using {{welcome}} , use {{subst:welcome}} . What that does is puts the code for the welcome template into the person's talk page so the server doesn't have to grab it every time someone enters his or her talk page.

Have a great day! Mattb112885 (talk to me) 01:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination

I nominated you for +rollbacker and +patroller at WB:RFP. You need to accept the nomination first. This isn't as big a deal as adminship, so I don't forsee bit problems with it. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 21:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Per my comments, I'd ask that you please do a bit of patrolling now/before the request is closed. It's a bit of a maze of templates and whatnot, so it's best to get going before you get the bit (since your work is kinda hidden afterwards, so nobody would see if you were having troubles). If you need help with patrolling, I'm your guy :)  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
these pages are ok - it is part of a class project and they will not be empty for long. I am going to use rollback to remove the {{query}} templates; don't be offended. As well, there's no need to sign with ~~~~ after adding templates to modules. Back to work...  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 23:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Tgibs007

Not sure what you did here, but the template message is strange. When you use {{subst:nld}} on an image like Image:599px-The Earth seen from Apollo 17.jpg it gives you text to paste into the user's talk page. In that case it should be {{subst:Image copyright|Image:599px-The Earth seen from Apollo 17.jpg|~~~~}} - that will produce the right text every time. Most of the other template messages you use when patrolling do the same thing.  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 13:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Allright, my mistake. Red4tribe (talk) 14:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ginny Weasley

Shouldn't it be deleted with speedy deletion? It is not a book but an encyclopedia entry. Hi, --Ramac (talk) 13:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yahweh

Another clarification, hopefully constructive. Ramac had it right there. That should be deleted because it is an encyclopedia article [1]. This is what you added afterwards. {{Query}} is for mistakes and very stubby things which are book-like; {{delete}} is for things which are not books.  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Mann

Hi I'm not sure what you are talking about. I selected an article to work on. It was not already taken. Can you be more specific? Thank you. Mmann019 (talk) 01:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your response Mmann019 (talk) 01:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC

[edit] Thanks for the template ;)

I do have a question that I feel you'd answer. How do I suggest a change to Wikibooks? The change is that the navigation for next/previous chapter should also appear at the bottom of pages. The reason being that scrolling all the way to the top to goto the next chapter is retarded. And, if possible, I'd like this fix named after me. If not that's ok too ;). Beamathan (talk) 02:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] +rollbacker and +patroller

In case you haven't noticed, User:Mike.lifeguard just gave you these rights. (Sorry mike, if you wanted to post a nice "welcome!" message here!). When you view an edit diff, you will see a link that says [rollback], and you are also able to do new page patrolling (something that doesn't get done enough around here). If you have any questions about things, let us know. As a few points:

  1. A strong vandal will make bad edits rapidly. It is more important to contact an admin to have the vandal blocked then it is to clean up the mess. Post a quick "help!" message on WB:AN first, then start rolling back vandal edits.
  2. If you notice patterns to vandalism from different accounts, they might be coming from the same source. A checkuser can determine this, and block the source for good. Again, post a message with your findings to WB:AN to get the proper help.
  3. One day, you're going to be the admin answering questions and responding to "help me!" pleas. Set a good example now that other users can follow, and in the future things will be that much easier for you to deal with.

If you have any questions or anything, you can ask me or any of the other current admins. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 02:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I just got sidetracked... Just a reminder there's more info/documentation for rollback and patrolling. As well, you may wish to use Twinkle Speedy. You may also wish to join us periodically in #wikibooks for both work and play. Congrats on the new rights, use them well and ask for help whenever (as always)  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 02:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a reminder that nonsense/vandalism like this should be deleted straight away - that's definitely not the beginning of a new book.  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That referred to the first one - you had added {{query}}, but it should have been {{delete}}. The others may make things a tad clearer.  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Please try to always patrol the page first and then hit edit to add templates or whatever. This ensures a) that you don't forget and b) that it is patrolled immediately so nobody else looks at it unnecessarily. Thanks.  – Mike.lifeguard | talk 01:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, stuff like this (hidden in a comment here, look in edit view) needs to be {{delete}}ed - it is total junk. Cleanup of a vandalism-only page consists of deleting it.
 – Mike.lifeguard | talk 21:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World History

Hi,

I was wondering if I could become member of the project World History. I have been editing at WP the last few months, you can check my account here: A.Cython and one of my main interests is history (mainly ancient and medieval). If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask. I can be regular contributor and proofreader. A.Cython (talk) 01:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

ok I will see what I can do. I am not sure when I will first contribute (hopefully soon) because the two articles I am writing at WP are already too time-consuming. But I will do my best :D A.Cython (talk) 02:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yep, you are right the image at the cover is too Greek! lol... I start adding staff this weekend so will spend some time to think about it. A.Cython (talk) 12:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Throwing some ideas on the table about the image of the project. So here are some of my thoughts
Maybe an old world map... maybe i do not have inspiration at the moment... any comments are welcomed! A.Cython (talk) 21:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Great! I think this is much better that what we have! And you are right, it is inaccurate, but that is not the point. It reminds us how things changed and will change (since we had a different view of the world several centuries ago). Until, we find something better we could place this as a cover! At least that is my opinion... A.Cython (talk) 21:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, not much... that is why I spend time at WP to learn some staff while at the same time contribute to the community. I could say that I know a couple of things about ancient civilizations up to medieval ages and the rise of the first European nations. At the moment I gathering material in order to write/expand the "Ancient Greece" chapter... (I think you have noticed that I am Greek). But I will contribute to other chapters as proof reader (i.e. checking at book if the claims hold) and whenever possible edit/expand them. Unfortunately, in this period of my life, time is a luxury so please do not depend on me for the project, but I promise that I will do what i can! :D A.Cython (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry. There is a Greek saying: "Bean by bean, the sack gets full" so small steps at the time and at the end the project will finish! A.Cython (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Dutch_Conquests_Brazil_Caribbean.png

This was an image from commons, and it was deleted over there. I think you were using it in your book on the Dutch Empire/Contents/The Atlantic page. You can check Wikibooks:CommonsTicker for more information about images on commons. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 14:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome

Hello, Red4tribe. Thank you for welcoming. I intend to work on books about mathemtical topics. Lechatjaune (talk) 21:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Red4tribe. Sorry if I am borring you. But I noticed that most books are inactive, i.e., nobody has edited them for a long time. Is there any way to find books where there are other guys working on? Lechatjaune (talk) 22:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World War II

Hello Red4tribe,

I'm Wesley Gray. I've done some work writing Wikijunior Bugs articles, Basic Computer Security articles, and a section in FHSST Biology. I hope to help you out with the World_War_II book. Just thought I'd let you know. Message me with any suggestions.

Cheers,

Wesley Gray (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muggles' Guide

Red4, thank you for looking at the Muggles' Guide. One thing: I note that you backed out a change, here, and thought I should mention that we (withinfocus and I) deliberated some time back as to whether we should keep unused book titles in the character summaries. After some discussion, we decided that in fact we would not keep empty book sections, but would remove them as we reached them. So the actions of this unnamed editor should not have been undone... But thank you all the same for keeping an eye on things. Chazz (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem... after all, how could you have known? Chazz (talk) 22:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RFP

Hi Redtribe,

I hope you get the votes you need to become an admin - I added my support. If you're wondering what I meant by "too nice," it was that you left welcome messages on the talk pages of users whose only contributions were vandalism. I only noticed because I had rolled it back and went there to leave a warning. But I do believe it is better to err on the side of mercy and friendliness. Good luck! --Jomegat (talk) 01:12, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Template

When you say "flags", you mean pictures of flags? How do you want those arranged, horizontally, vertically, something else? --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 23:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

This may be a stupid question, but I want to make sure it gets done correctly: Do you want the USSR on the allies or axis side? Stalin was pro-Hitler for much of the early war. I assume you want them on the Allies side, but I like to double-check. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 00:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Done. Check it out and see if you like it. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 00:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Adminship

It has only been a week, but I can understand being impatient! I was the same when I was first nominated. These things all come down to the discretion of our bureaucrats, and they work at their own speed. For some nominations, we like to wait a little bit longer to make sure that many community members have a chance to comment. With this being your second nomination, we just want to make sure everything goes smootly, and we don't want to do anything with too much haste. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 00:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There are currently only 4 votes. I'll see what I can do to drum up a few more voices. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 01:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You have the trust of the community, and have been given sysop tools. I'm sure you'll use them wisely. If you have questions about any of the buttons, there are plenty willing to answer questions. As well, you may wish to subscribe to the (unfortunately) low-traffic mailing list textbook-l and join us in #wikibooks (open) and/or #wikimedia-admin (requires an invite - ask me or Az). You can let users know you are an admin with {{user admin}} if you like.

Congratulations, and welcome to the admin team!  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 02:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to say a quick congratulations too. As a general note, it's always better to ask questions about something rather then act too quickly. If there are any requests that you aren't comfortable handling, wait for somebody else to do it (or wait for them to show you how). Keep an eye on WB:AN too, that page gets all sorts of reports, especially about vandalism. If you have any questions, never hesitate to ask. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 16:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Congrats! Feel free to block Whiteknight if he gives you any trouble, he's been known to vandalize a bit. Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 02:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll get right at that. Red4tribe (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:w:WP:SNOW

In general, we don't like to have a lot of policy around here. Even if you set it up as a "guideline" instead of a policy, I doubt many people would vote for it. A few things that you could do:

  1. Write a draft of the guideline here, use {{Proposed}} to mark it as a proposal. Post a couple notes on places like WB:CHAT and WB:BB to get some feedback from the community about it.
  2. An easier thing to do (and probably a better thing) would be to copy it into a page in your user namespace, such as User:Red4tribe/SNOW, and use the {{Essay}} template instead. This way people can find it if they want to, the community doesnt need to approve it (which they probably wouldn't anyway), and we have it as a handy reference.

Anyway, you can pursue this however you see fit. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Improtance of water in humand

This is the kind of thing we delete outright - there is absolutely zero potential for that to be useful. I agree being nice is fine, but there's no reason to have garbage hanging around, especially in the mainspace (albeit only for a week).  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 01:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] teresacoffman

Hello, thank you for your message. Yes, I uploaded images my students either created or took screen shots of yesterday. The screenshots are of video's from other sites. Would I still say self for the screenshots. I was unclear and hoping for some guidance. Thanks in advance

Talk

[edit] Re:Bot Idea

It is an interesting idea, but the bot would need a list of uncategorized pages to work from in the first place. When it found a page, it would have to determine whether the page was a top-level page "BookName", or a sub-page "Bookname/Pagename". The subpages can be tagged with {{BookCat}} or something similar, the top-level pages should be tagged with {{Alphabetical}} (if they aren't already). I have a bot that could do the tagging, if I had a list of pages to tag from (and the time to run it). --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 20:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Right to disappear

Hey Red4tribe, just so you know, users on the wiki projects have a right to vanish, so if they request deletion of their own user pages, we usually will grant the request. I presume this is the right that User:Terra was exercising by asking for his or her pages to be deleted (or just that the only contributor to a page can request speedy deletion of that page under our current policy). Regards, Mattb112885 (talk to me) 01:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anything in policy requiring them to give a reason for vanishing, though if you find something to that effect I apologize. It's left as a gray area on the meta page (perhaps on purpose). Regards, Mattb112885 (talk to me) 23:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Videogame Guides

Videogame guides typically do get deleted, but courteously. We can move good guides to Strategy Wiki before they get deleted here. I would nominate it for WB:VFD. With these kinds of materials, we can be patient with them so they can find the right home. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 16:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It's become apparent that Wikibooks has been invaded by video game guides. Just as disproportionate FA articles on WP are video games, it has happened here. Yikes. Davumaya (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting vandalism

Hi,

I saw you revert the edit by User talk:63.133.224.131 on the page American Literature/19th Century/Emily Dickinson. Although that edit looks like blanking/vandalism, I think the person has a point; the article describes Jack London while it is supposed to be about Emily Dickinson. Perhaps, we could ask him/her to make a better edit?

SPat talk 16:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Random Book

Hey, I was wondering if the Random Book link in the navigation bar was not working for you or anyone else; it works fine in the special page section. Is the talk page the only way to contact an administrator? Thank you.

[edit] Please

...confirm an email address in Special:Preferences.  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 18:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question on Image Uploading & Licensing

I have apparently not been using the image upload feature properly.

How do I access the image properties inspector to make adjustments to the licensing?

Jugandi (talk) 19:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World History and Ancient History

I know Ancient civilizations aren't exactly your area of interest, but I was wondering if I could have your input on something, as someone interested in history who has done a fine job expanding our history bookshelf.

The Ancient History book has issues with scope. I believe the original intent was to stop the book at the fall of Rome, but "ancient" civilizations continued to exist elsewhere in the world for centuries after, such as the American civilizations that did not collapse until the sixteenth centuries. I therefore think it would be better for there to be no "Ancient" History book at all, but rather to merge it into the World History book. This would certainly solve the scope issues, as the World History book's scope would not need to be defined by time. Thoughts? Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 05:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the first 10-12 chapters of World History, they correspond rather well with those of Ancient History. We could merge histories and just pick and choose what is best from each one. The chapters of Ancient History are on the left, and the corresponding chapters of World History are on the right:

Ancient History
Introduction
World Geography
Human Evolution
The Ancient Near East
Egypt
China
Ancient India
Ancient Greece
Ancient Rome
Iran
Islam
The Americas
Africa
Polynesia

World History
Prologue
no equivalent
no equivalent
Ancient Civilizations
Ancient Civilizations
The First Chinese Dynasties
Civilization and Empires in the Indian Subcontinent
Ancient Greece and Alexander the Great
The Roman Empire
Middle Eastern Empires
Middle Eastern Empires
Precolumbian History of the Americas
Ancient Kingdoms of Africa
no equivalent

Shouldn't be too difficult, they overlap nearly perfectly. Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 02:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I can do it today and tomorrow probably. Νεοπτόλεμος ( talk | email | contribs ) 19:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikibooks World History and Maps

Hello. I've been working on a series of world history maps, many of which are uploaded to Wikimedia commons on my Talessman Maps page, and on www.WorldHistoryMaps.info. I would like to contribute to Wikibooks: World History, and was told I should contact you. Respectfully, talessman (talk) 07:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I would like to contribute to the World History book by proofreading? I understand that I should contact you? --Monty7 (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Cross wiki spammer pages

You may want to consider a block at least (I tagged the pages for deletion). Cheers --Herby talk thyme 13:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Upped that one to infinite - hope you don't mind but abuse of Foundation wikis is unacceptable.  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 00:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Founding fathers

Thanks for the comment. I like the concept of the book so I will probably be working on it a lot when I have the time but right now because of school, I'm not sure how much I will be able contribute. I didn't want to add my name to the author list if I wasn't going to be adding a lot over a long period of time. I also want to ask you how much information you want on the pages.

I looked at your work on George Washington before I started. Is that about the amount of info your looking for, or do you want more than that, I want to make sure I get it right when I start building onto the profiles so that they look uniform throughout. --Xxagile (talk) 15:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Copyright problems with Image:BattleofFortDuquesne.jpg

Bah, sorry for the template. It just needs a source. Please use {{Information}} to provide all that info, and you may consider moving the image to Commons.  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 00:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How To Build A Pykrete Bong

Hi Red4tribe, Since your vote on Wikibooks:Votes for deletion#How To Build A Pykrete Bong I've commented on your argument and wanted to bring that to your attention. --Swift (talk) 03:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirecting "Reading Aloud"

What is the point of the redirect, there are no links to that page ? Please, next time you revert an edit do add a comment to indicate why... --Panic (talk) 19:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] YAY

you're back  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 19:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Revolt

Hi, I added some stuff to Dutch Empire/Contents/Dutch Revolt that you might enjoy Jcwf (talk) 20:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

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