User talk:Iamunknown/Archive 1

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This is an archive, please do not edit it.

Contents 1 Thanks 2 Welcome! 3 Re: Image Sources and the General Welcome 4 You are so right! 5 I did tell you! 6 Unsolved 7 Stuff 7.1 Techy bits 7.2 WB bits 7.3 Work for both of us! 8 Stop!!!!! 9 AWB 10 Twins? 11 Re cats 12 More 13 Categories 14 Mumfum 15 Hum 16 Uberish 17 Neat 18 Re: VFD 19 Suggestion 20 Thanks for the suggestion 21 Re: Reference 22 Wikibooks Newsletter, Volume 1 23 WB:RFA 24 Your decline 25 Hey there... 26 Bad transwiki tag... 27 And back 28 Images question 29 recent additions 30 Wishes! 31 Move (btw, txs for your support) 32 Re: User:Flonejek 33 Muslim saints etc 34 Having respect for your opinion 35 You are quick! 36 Catching up <g> 37 Staff lounge 38 I'll be back :-) 39 Re:Metric units 40 Cat images, etc. 41 Image deletion question 42 Trinidadian English 43 Naijigo + Cycling 44 I like what you are doing! 45 From Wikilibros 46 XHTML images and files 47 Thanks very much 48 what's with all the user categories? 49 Oni 50 Nosy 51 Help page 52 Idea on the Staff Lounge 53 Re:Wikiproject Authority 54 Proxy blocks... 55 Template:ASPCite 56 Electronics Images 57 Notes 58 RePanic 59 re:Images 60 Apologies 61 Re:Notes and Images 62 Image:Collapse.gif 63 subst 64 New Media Art book 65 Abt Nepal Bhasa 66 commons:Image:Roma2001-02.png 67 Main page 68 Any news? 69 Commons Ticker 70 Image Posted!! 71 Archive page (SL) 72 qr-em 73 Lifespan 74 WB:RFA 75 Re:Commons Ticker 76 Image:Softbodytut.gif 77 Telescope Making 78 Work done today on Telescope Making 79 Sysop 80 Ooopsie 81 Just to remember you 82 Question 83 stage short 84 email 85 Personal Attacks

Thanks

Thanks for the welcome and information! I'm sure that it will all prove to be most helpful. Good luck with your classes! :) Alainna 07:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

As you are handing them out you should get one too!

Hello and welcome to Wikibooks!

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You will find more resources in Community Portal. If you want to ask a question, visit the Study help desk, the Staff lounge, IRC channel or ask me personally on my talk page.

Good luck! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Image Sources and the General Welcome

Thanks for the information regarding the image - I was pretty much as fresh as they come when I uploaded that image but after a couple of days of familarising myself I have started to grips with the basics. Many thanks for the offer of help - i'll be back if I come across any difficulties. --SamEEE 20:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You are so right!

I doubt I could have put it better myself! I've not been here at all long (but have been quite active) but getting used to the differences has taken time (one I particularly love - don't ask why "speedy deletes" aren't speedily deleted - you will be told that the name doesn't mean they will be dealt with speedily!!!). That said I like it. It is way less strict and formal than Wp and the folk are pretty good. Hopefully you will stick around but you will get to know folk, there really are many and there is plenty of housekeeping to do if you want to get involved. For example if you are used to WP you will know that there are as many RC patrollers as there are vandals <g> - here you are in contact with around 50% of the active RC team! Take that as a hint if you feel inclined - tho traffic is different too, 500 showing on RC will be about 12 hours quite often. Anyway I will quit rambling and do some work but stick around and help - it would be good. Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I did tell you!

About Sap sd - I agree however the procedure/speed here just ain't like WP. There is a very laid back approach to housekeeping generally here (however I'm up for admin and do intend to do some cleaning, so rest assured the deletions WILL take pace <g>) and not that many people to do it. For your info the qr-em tag is kind of neat - basically it allows the author 7 days (or much longer) to turn nothing much into a stub at least. After 7 days it auto becomes a speedy (also avoids biting newbies). Do keep looking for stuff tho and bring it up somewhere/somehow - there are some darl corners around. Regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsolved

How weird and well spotted - looks fairly inconclusive so I guess we'll let it run. Appreciate it --Herby ^{talk thyme} 16:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Stuff

Hi - only just in and picking up threads. Give me a bit and I'll get back to you on both. The work on stuff is appreciated - stick around :-) Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

God you soon SO like me when I started <G> (lounge posts!). I'll certainly look at it when I get time but time here is different (and that still does piss me off)! Take care --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW will AWB do page renames/moves? I've got it and use it from time to time --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to look at my .js and yes it works --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It was popups I was on about working BTW (I really wouldn't be without it). AWB wise, no sign up here (which I think is a little odd). I've enable spell checking locally so if you use it feel free to check typos (tho I think a couple need fixing - I update it from time to time). I'm actually at work (!) so more when I have a break --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but change the shortcuts to what you want and the admin links bit on popups won't work for you (yet!)--Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Have a good rest - you'll have mail when you are next on! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Techy bits

Feel free to run AWB with some caution. There are so many pages badly cat'd (categorisation is a subject I want to raise when I get time). Check you have the latest version (they do update often, and I must do the same). As I said I created the page for typos but maybe check how recently I updated it. AWB does not like WB's habit of using links in titles either - take care on that (& possibly other diffs).

Scripts - there are some great ones on WP - still surprises me how few people here use them - I am basically lazy, if there is any easy way - great. Popups is my fave tho, first thing I did here - live preview is wonderful. If you find any useful ones feel free to let me know.

WB bits

Bear in mind I'm still fairly new too. I am something of a deletionist but I am begining to be a little more tolerant. AFAIK all unlicensed images are due for deletion (uploaded prior to 1st Nov) so i wouldn't worry too much about them - I think it is a "bot" job - as such I'm not sure listing them is good use of your time.

Good find on the Halo ones - I think they are del ones. I'll run it past a more experienced admin first I think - deleting pages is fine - "books" are way different. I did say there were dark corners here (well intended to but it came out as "darl"!).

Refactoring/policy - hum! This place isn't strong on policy. My view FWIW would be that the page needs arc'ing and I would clear any dealt with junk to the archive page (if I understand you correctly).

Naming - needs attention in many books. Can tag it but I tend to do any that I see while I'm there as it were?

As stated above - policy isn't a popular topic here (look in the lounge arcs at some of my earlier peices!). However I would love to get some guidelines underway for external links. The view is that they are probably ok (not mine) - I see them as merely a subtle form of vandalism, I'm sure some are ok but some pages are nothing short of dire (for a reader) - spam welcome at User:Herbythyme/Over EL pages!. I'd be happy to have any input at User:Herbythyme/poss el policy.

Hopefully you've slept and this answers at least some of your questions - cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Work for both of us!

You want me to do a merge - do you know how scary that is - I barely understand the instructions! OK I'll look at it. Halo you are right & I'll start deleting now if nothing else comes up - hopefully finish tomorrow. For you - Special:DoubleRedirects if you do any moves check these out and fix the ones you create - if you don't do any moves fix the ones that are there <g> - I'll be in touch --Herby ^{talk thyme} 20:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the work on the redirects - a nuisance but needing doing. Browse the "module cleanup" in tools any time - there is always something in there needing attention and it helps in learning about the place (as always if in doubt ask, you've "met" most folk by now). Got quite a way thro Halo and will finish that today with luck - cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Stop!!!!!

Do not move pages from Transwiki_talk to Talk:Transwiki. You are undoing a lot of work done by one of our friends on meta. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem... I saw you had only done it on one page. "Transwiki" is a namespace (like "Wikibooks", "Template", or "Cookbook", etc.). The Talk:Transwiki pages actually need to be deleted.

Otherwise you did the right thing in theory, but it's going to be harder to find the "Talk:Transwiki" pages now :-(. (The double-redirect was a good way to find them). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Uh, the transwiki namespace is for mudules transwikied from other projects, not modules that are going to be transwikied.

The Mips assembly thing is a long story... I had tw'd it into the main namespace, because we hadn't figured out yet that the Import tools overwrites existing modules (there already was one there). That's a large part of why we requested the creation of the Transwiki namespace, because the import tool doesn't tell you if you're importing onto an already-existing page.--SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

AWB

I was watching the RC feed on IRC, and I saw your edit as soon as it happened. You are welcome to use AWB, wikibooks currently doesnt have any policy to govern the use of that tool. If more people get it, or if we have problems with it, perhaps we will put some restrictions into place. However, you seem trustworthy, so feel free to use any tool you want!

By the way, thanks for your help around here. We always need more helpful people. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Twins?

I honestly think we're twins. Are you a Junior in high school? You just read The Scarlet Letter, right? I absolutely loved that book, too, compared to all others we read (except I also enjoyed To Kill A Mockingbird). Your list of who you want to read, just add Aristotle, is EXACTLY mine, everything from Neitzche (I just got a philosophy book on him) to Mostly Harmless, and I've read the other four! Sorry, I was just amazed by that haha. We're obviously the same person. I work at the library, so I'm able to see all these books, and they tempt me, but I know I have to wait until I finish my current one haha. Well, once again, thanks for telling me about the Delete... --Jaden Mathos 04:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I've been planning to rad Beowulf for quite some time; and I'm getting to it in the Norton Anthology of Word Literature, but I'll have to use the internet for the other one. Thanks for the recommendations! --Jaden Mathos 05:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Re cats

Good work and use of AWB - could you look at making most (not necessarily all) cats you come across to be [[category:Whatever|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]] as this will correctly alpha cat stuff - cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 19:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

More

Thats good work on cats and cleanup stuff generally. Cats are something that - to me - require quite a bit of attention. Quite a few are created and used without much thought (there is nothing much in the way of guidance so not that surprising). It is one I want to dig into a bit deeper but help/input would be more than welcome (& it would be great use for AWB - feel free to vote for my bot account BTW on RfA page!).

By & large Wikijunior looks pretty good with a top page in the overall category and then subpages in the category for the book (alpha cat'ed in previous work by me). However looking a bit wider that really does not seem to have been the way cats are usually used. An entire book may be cat'ed at what to me is the top level (or indeed not at all). While I think it would be good to get some action I think some discussion should take place (I hoped to get one going at Category talk:Main page but de nada). However Category:Main page is a good place to explore from a look at some of the frankly daft inconsistencies. Feel free to get back to me if you want more of my thoughts or anything. It certainly makes for interesting browsing - for example WTF is SPM - ok I read the page but the title is hardly helpful. While it would be a manual job as far as I can see the "How to" pages could be better cat'ed in my view (but mine is only one view).

Yours to me - images aren't my strong point but you are right to get this one going. I'll certainly look at it as soon as I can - I take it the speedies you have marked you have checked out (look like they should belong somewhere but the editor is inactive at pres)? If so I'll del them as soon as I hear from you. Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Categories

Just wondering, what reasons you have for changing categories for example from Programming to Programming textbook pages? I think we might be working against each other, because I've been moving pages away from categories ending with textbook pages. I just noticed, so thought I would try to get with you on this, so we can resolve any differences of opinion and start working together rather then against each other. --darklama 02:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

At first I disliked the idea of having the textbook pages categories, but then I thought it might be convenient, especially in categories with a lot books, such as programming. Then the relevant subcategories, such as (i'm naming these off the top of my head) programming in the windows environment (not a book, but a category of books), server-side programming (containing books on php, asp, etc.), would be more easily accessible, and the textbook pages would be conveniently in that one textbook pages category.

I know that one could argue that then the textbook pages are less accessible. But that is why, for general programming wikibooks, we keep the top pages of the wikibooks in the main category (in this case programming).

Anyways, that is what I was thinking. Did I even make sense? =\ I rarely do. --Iamunknown 02:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I can understand trying to divide a category into smaller subcategories. I don't think having textbook in the category is needed to do that though. From what I've see each book should have a category by the same name as the book in which all its pages should go. The first page (that is the top level page in which all the subpages/chapters are located) is then additionally located in some other category. In the case of Programming, I've been focusing my attention so far on Category:Programming languages, but I think Category:Programming should be cleaned up to have just the Category:Programming languages category with the varies language categories located within Category:Programming languages category and any subpages fixed to not include either one. What do you think? I hope I made sense. --darklama 03:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Aside: I agree that most of the programming wikibooks should be in the programming languages. Now: I'll explain the circumstances that made me entertain the idea of having a [name] textbook pages category schema. I was working in the Windows category. It has two multi-paged wikibooks, several single-page wikibooks, and one category. The child category, Windows XP, has two one-page wikibooks and one multi-page wikibook. All the multi-page wikibooks have their top-level page in their respective category in addition to the top-level page and all the other pages are in the eponymous category. But that causes confusion in the parent cat, Windows. Then two categories are "wikibook pages" categories, while the other is a normal category. I was confused as to what to do. When I saw the Programming textbook pages category, I was sure I found the answer. I haven't moved any of the Windows wiki-sub-cats into their own Windows-related textbook pages cat yet, but I was originally planning to. That is why I thought having a [name] (text/wiki)book pages cat would be appropriate. Cheers, Iamunknown 04:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok first I've been doing too many edits. I haven't been changing things to programming languages as much as I thought. Must of been some other categories. However I think its a good idea to organize it regardless of the fact I haven't been doing it as I previously thought.

I don't think I understand the issue with the Windows-related categories. the top-level page of each book probably should be in Windows category, and the category by the same name as the books probably should be categorized to have Windows as its category. Could you explain what the issue is your trying to fix? --darklama 04:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

When I got to the category, it was a mess. I cleaned it up by removing all but the top-level pages from the category (standard) and then moving the top-level pages of the three xp-related wikibooks to the windows xp category. The problem is that, in the windows category, there are two categories that only contain pages of their eponymous wikibooks, and there is one category (windows xp) which contains the top-level pages of three wikibooks. That is the problem.

I thought it would be remedied by creating a "Windows-related wikibook pages" category, because then there would be two distinct type of categories--a regular category and a wikibook-page parent category. That way, if any more Windows-family wikibooks are created, the Windows XP category wouldn't get swallowed and lost in a bunch of wikibook-page categories. --Iamunknown 04:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The category as it is now looks good, so you've done a good job. :)

Do you intend for the Windows category to be a general category for all Windows related books? If so I don't think there's any need to further categories the two categories that are present at this time. Subcatagories I think are generally only created out of a current need, such as because there are a ton of books in the category. Your bit about "That way, if any more Windows-family wikibooks are created", sounds like a mistake I've made a few times, trying to prevent some potential future catastrophe through fortune telling of a future even which hasn't come to pass yet. The best advice I can give is don't worry about it until it becomes a problem, if it becomes a problem, just as you helped to fix the Windows category, you or someone else may come up with a solution to fix it then. Also don't worry about problems that "might happen" and just focus on current ones. --darklama 05:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like good and needed advice to me. Thanks. Iamunknown 05:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Mumfum

Good job on Wellspring ( talk | email | contribs )! --Swift 07:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hum

Wouldn't mind you emailing me, if you don't want to - no problem! Some good work going on - thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 17:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I know <g> - you have mail! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Uberish

Would you be interested in learning Uberish? --User:Eura23

Answered at Eura's talk page. --Iamunknown 18:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. Also, what kind of experience do you have with languages, and with which ones? Third, which conlangs do you suggest from the Conlang wikia? --Eura23

I posted a post on your talk page without seeing this one first.

You're welcome. :-) And thank you for the kind response. I have little experience with languages. I know a lot from reading linguistics and con/nat language articles on Wikipedia, I have taken Spanish for a couple of years, and I know tidbits of other languages. I haven't looked at many languages at the Conlang wikia, but one of my favorite conlangs, as a Lord of the Rings fan, is Quenya. The Wikibook is a pretty good starting point, and there a many other resources on the Internet to help you along. Also, consider looking at Omniglot.com. It has constructed and natural languages (mainly ortographies), and it is really cool to browse around.

Lastly, I hope you stay around at Wikibooks. We always have room for more. :-) Again, thanks for your kind response. Cheers, Iamunknown 19:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Neat

I like the double colour close! And particularly the fact that someone has at last closed the (!) thing. Closing the others would be lovely..... I'll happily close stuff but not my area of expertise or interest. I think the closing template is accepted "policy" now. Kinda started by me, improved by Dragontamer and tidied by Darklama! You probably should look at the strategy to archive VfD which has changed from standard page arc to sub page which should make it easier to find stuff later (I think you may be aware of it but just in case.

The uberish was handled well - I did reply to you. Let me know if I can help - regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: VFD

No stepping-on-toes assumed. I'm still not familiar with the VfD templates, and I would hate to use them incorrectly. It seems to me to be mostly an aesthetic thing anyway. Either way, thanks for fixing it. Also, I didn't notice that I voted twice. Thanks for fixing that! --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 17:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Closing VfDs - not an admin job when consensus is clear. I was doing it before I was an admin - feel free when you want to. Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: closing VfDs - I guess I'm used to Wikipedia AfDs, where only admins close, and if any user even suggests closing, then he is pariahed. :P --Iamunknown 19:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK - I thought others could close on WP (tho only the brave!) here I don't think it is an issue - certainly I closed a few obvious ones before being admin). I was told off for closing in under 7 days (I had decided it was borderline speedy). I actually see it as one of those useful things to do. Stuff here really is different to WP - much looser - opening stuff is ok - getting any kind of closure on anything is a different matter <g> --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion

There is actually another approach with time that can be done that probably wouldn't cause a problem with caching that involves using subst. When this was being discussed, people seemed to like the idea of having timed delay templates. The perticular reason for the approach taken was it allowed new users to develope the text futhor and not have to remember to remove the tag and if not left unattended again for a period readd for speedy deletion. With the other approach, people would have to remember to remove the tag otherwise it would remain in speedy deletion regardless of any edits. I went with what people wanted and seemed to work. There may be improvements I could make to the current approach. --darklama 21:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion

I decided on C++ because I have willing and very able tutors but I plan to do PHP next for exactly the reasons you laid out. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 22:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Reference

A: We don't need references on pages in the Wikibooks: namespace... they're policies and tools, not books. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikibooks Newsletter, Volume 1

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04:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

WB:RFA

I've nominated you for adminship on WB:RFA. Voting will commence once you accept your nomination (and I hope you choose to do so). We certainly may not agree on many things around here, but I cannot deny that you are working for the greater good, and that you want the best for this project. You've taken upon yourself a number of difficult, time-consuming, and often thankless jobs (such as the image tagging), and I would like not only to thank you for that, but also draw community attention to your admirable efforts. Talk to you later. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 04:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Your decline

Hi Iamunknown! I hope you won't take my comments the wrong way... you do a lot of great work for the wikibooks community, I just felt that you hadn't been around long enough to get a proper feel for that "gray area". If you decide later that not having the tools is driving you crazy (i.e., the admins aren't cleaning up the messes you point out fast enough), let me know via email, and I'll nominate you again. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 02:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey there...

It's nice to see you too. :) --Elaragirl 15:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Bad transwiki tag...

Forgot to mention this (actually I had forgotten that I made the template): please use {{qr-twwp}} if you see anything that might be a wikipedia dump. (How on earth do you find them, BTW? It's uncanny!) --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

And back

All the best to you too - have a great break and fun! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Images question

I asked Herby this question and he referred me to you, so I'll ask: is the fact that an image is orphaned and licenced under fair use a good cause for speedy deletion? How long do you think one should reasonably wait before tagging such an image (I've tagged a few already that were over 2 years old, but as I get into newer ones the question will become less clear). If it IS a good cause, should I/someone make a motion to change the deletion policy to reflect this? Thank you for your time. Reagards.Mattb112885 19:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't even realise that there wasn't a criterion for speedy deletion that covered orhpaned fair use images. I've created a proposed amendment at Wikibooks:Deletion policy/Image amendment. Consider looking at it. I think it may pass readily; it is already standard process to nominate orphaned fair use images for speedy deletion.

As for time, as policy is now, I would suggest tagging them on sight. It would be appropriate to notify the uploader and perhaps leave a note on the talk page of wikibooks who would have interested contributors. We may wish to expand the amendment to do something like Wikipedia's seven-day categories, so it gives the uploaders or other interested Wikipedians seven days to do something with the image.

Thanks for asking. Stay in touch. Cheers, Iamunknown 22:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the right idea to me, I think we should make a mention of it on the staff lounge to get more opinions, though you're right it does seem to be standard, sensible practice to do this. I'm just a policy nut, I don't like doing anything there's not a policy for! (though I'll confess sometimes there's too much policy, in the case of wikibooks it's often not enough, and/or is very scattered, as I'm sure you know). I'll tag them, I'm not sure if there'd be any remaining books interested in using many of them, since they look like they came from an intended or a deleted video game manual, the likes of which tend to be deleted and/or transwikified recently. But isn't there kind of a contradiction between tagging the image for speedy and contacting people to see if they're interested in the image anyways? I agree that the 7 day thing would be more reasonable, though we may need to give a longer time than that since we have more scattered input than wikipedia would. Regards, Mattb112885 03:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a contradiction. And it is probably unnecessary; on Wikipedia, at least, it isn't done. But I still think it is a good idea to notify the uploader.

I hope, and the administrators have been deleting the images I tag. With attention to amendment and hopefully a successful amendment, other users might become aware of this. --Iamunknown 04:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• reset

Guessing you are both watching this one. I agree with what has been said basically (& I've been deleting them but I am a bit that way inclined!). I do think if the editor is current some period should be allowed after a talk page message. I also feel a mention in the staff lounge would be good - however bear in mind that much "policy" is made on the hoof! Regards to you both --Herby ^{talk thyme} 12:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

recent additions

see Wikibooks_talk:What is Wikibooks/Unstable for my disagreement with your recent additions. --darklama 09:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought of something else I failed to point out in my comments. I replied to your comments. --darklama 10:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, are you well rested enough to try to tackle explaining what you mean by study guide yet and how its different from a textbook? --darklama 15:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Wishes!

Good ones for you and those you care about for 2007 - regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 17:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

And very nice user page BTW --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Move (btw, txs for your support)

I'm off to bed now, and I will post a more extensive message later today, but can you provide me the logic of you being against a move (of the posts) ? I can see many valid points for a move and only one disadvantage (well a copy and paste would also work but a message that the conversation was moved and there is a problem with people archiving that kind of pages etc...) --Panic 04:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Good night! Hope you sleep well, and happy new years! I'll be going to bed soon too.

I agree that it is a good idea to copy and paste the conversation from the main page to a more appropriate talk page. Please feel free to do so. But I also advocate leaving the conversation in its original place with (1) a link to direct users to the new place where you paste it and (2) a link back to its original spot from the the new spot. That way the context of the original conversation is not lost and it can continue (as it seems it will) in a more appropriate spot.

And no problem for the support. :D I agree with some of your reasoning and conclusions. I especially agree with (1) what I perceive to be your resistance to hastily creating policies just for the sake of creating policies and (2) what I perceive to be your recognisal that there is a lot of pushing and shoving by some admins to pass policies and make decision where there is not exactly consensus.

Again, have a Happy New Years! Best wishes to you and yours! User:Iamunknown 05:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope you also passed into a marry New Year...

Move vs Copy-paste

If one moves a discussion all intervening parties are automatically informed that a changes has occurred, as the text will be missing, not so on copy-paste, on a move all not productive text is removed to a dedicated forum (generating an aggregation of information on the same topic without leaving breadcrumbs all over), the other problem is the achieving of duplicated text (on pages that do archive discussions), the other point you raise are similar to both situations you could propose a guideline that would address this kind of problem, (for instance remember my talk page) I only archive post that I think will have relevance in the future, if someone posts on my talk, I probably will move the post to his talk and reply there (as he gets informed on logon of a new message) and star monitoring his talk page for subsequent replies. --Panic 04:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You may, theoretically, do whatever you want to on your talk page, as it is your talk page. I am currently opposed to moving text around en masse from other pages, however, because it separates the discussion from the context and is unnecessary. Specifically, while all involved parties are automatically informed that a change has occurred if the text is moved to a dedicated forum, they are also automatically informed that a change has occurred if a conspicuous link is appended to the original discussion directing them to the new forum. I would prefer and encourage the latter as it creates the least change. It is the path of least resistance. — User:Iamunknown 06:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: User:Flonejek

Sorry about the late reply. I had sent this user an email in the past when the whole image deletion thing started. He replied saying that all his images had been created by himself, and that they could be licensed appropriately. He seemed like he was on the level, but sometimes I can be too trusting. If you have suspicions about the images, feel free to mark them for deletion. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Muslim saints etc

I actually agree with you but I was told (if not literally) that as user space "we don't care" (that isn't the only one I find suss either!). I'll leave it and we'll see what happens if that is ok? Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 19:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW just noticed what you did to the VfD template - excellent thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 19:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I didn't realise I was editing user space. I thought it was article space. Leaving it is probably the best decision. — User:Iamunknown 20:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW I did blank stuff from both a user page and a user talk page - no one objected - you may wish to consider that? cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• reset

& forget - someone deleted it! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Having respect for your opinion

Would you look at Wikibooks:Administrators'_noticeboard#Closed_VfD_-_advice_please and comment if you see fit. Thanks & regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You are quick!

A third message - Cycling round the world, you beat me to it - in case I miss the reply, do let me know - thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Catching up <g>

Only to say I've enjoyed reading your postings in what was for me overnight. Much sense in a number of places. I may well follow some of them up when I wake up properly - regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. I am kind of dismayed with current events. When I first came back to Wikibooks it was easier to be involved with a lot of different aspects herein. But lately, so many huge policy discussions and users frustrated with each other and it seems like there is no time to do it all anymore. And if I try to be involved, then I can't actually contribute. Maybe that's the way it'll go. It certainly is that way on big projects like Wikipedia.

Oh, and a request: if you could look at Category:NowCommons and delete a few images there. Especially the flags. They are driving me nuts, because I tagged them a while ago and they are still sitting there. I'm crazy like that. :-D

Again, thank you, User:Iamunknown 10:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm with you on the frustration. Maybe like you conflict is the very last thing I seek anywhere. All I can say is hang in - your contributions have a value to the project (doesn't mean I agree with them all!). And yes I understand the deletion frustration - I'll go look and delete a bit later. Regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Done a bit with the broom. Need to clear the cache to see where I am up to but I will get back to them I promise you (I used to feel exactly the same!). On that subject - do point stuff out if you feel it is overlooked - there aren't that many active admin for quite a bit of work. And keep contributing - it is a "hard" world - only people can make it better </philosophy>! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 12:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Staff lounge

When you are next in that frame of mind I'm sure some junk could be archived (kind of "you started it"!!). Regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation and for cleaning up after my image tagging. I may take you up on that offer later, but now it is rather late and I am off to bed. Cheers, User:Iamunknown 13:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

No worries = BTW don't think bulk image deletion will happen until there is a licensed admin bot! --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll be back :-)

I don't have enough time to invest on Wikibooks. Unless all that I want to implement in Wikibooks somehow magically gets implemented by others (hint: it wouldn't as the thought processes of diff. people are diff.) and unless some natural factors affect me, I'll keep trying to return to Wikibooks.

BTW I wonder why everyone keeps asking me to contribute, I'm sure my contribution so far has been nearly nothing, with so many others working on it. :-) -- Paddu 19:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Metric units

I'm not saying you can't come up with a solution yourself. I'm trying to see what I can come up with, you are welcome to explore the situation yourself. We will likely need to combine our solutions to come up with something that is perfect. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 22:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Cat images, etc.

Hi Iamunknown. Yup, those images need to be sourced. Unfortunately the same user had claimed PD on an image that was definitely not PD a few months ago as well. Someone left him a message about it two days ago... if he doesn't reply within a week or so they should probably be speedied.

As a rule, we need to know the source for any image (fair use, PD, or otherwise). Just putting a tag on something doesn't do the trick unless it's being posted by the creator. Thanks for helping with the images! --SB_Johnny | ^talk 00:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems like a tag would be the trick. Either something is in the public domain because it "consists entirely of information that is common property and contains no original authorship" or it is not — User:Iamunknown 00:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I had always assumed that as well, until I got more involved on commons. If it's not the uploader's own work, a link or proper citation of the original source is needed so that it's status can be verified. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Image deletion question

Hi Iamunknown, I tagged an image as {{Nowcommons|ImageName.ext}}, but my question is if the same image is under two different licenses (this one was under PD on WB but GDFL on Commons), is it still OK to delete one and leave the other one?

Also, is there any way to be SURE that it's the same image, other than inspection of dimensions and such?

Thank you. Mattb112885 01:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of it before, but you could easily compare them with an md5 hash program or a hex editor. I don't have one installed on my computer, but I was able to quickly get one at sourceforge (here's my search) (the first program on that list, MUSASH, is excellent). BTW, thanks for dealing with that image. I remember seeing it once and I don't know why I didn't tag it...User:Iamunknown 01:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Or just use a w:diff program. -- Paddu 08:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Trinidadian English

Hi - I've closed this as Transwiki as that seems to be the consensus. However if you care to address the problem as your last posting on the VfD I feel that would be wise. Many thanks and regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Naijigo + Cycling

The first was on my watch list anyway. Both now deleted. Be peaceful & if I can help let me know - regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way "talking" to the con lag one would have been hard as they are IPs and more than one. Nothing at all came up on google when I checked yesterday - I just didn't have time to deal with it. Regards (& get some sleep!!) --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Thx for dealing with it and for your concern. User:Iamunknown 13:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I like what you are doing!

Some nice housekeeping going on - should help find stuff at least, then it can be dealt with - thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 07:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Just don't put me in a category - it doesn't work <g> - regards --Herby ^{talk thyme} 19:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok :-D --User:Iamunknown 19:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

From Wikilibros

Hello Iamunknown.

I am a wikiescritor at the Spanish Wikibooks version. Currently, I am writing the English language book, which I am trying to write in English and Spanish (using a two-column format). Since I am not a native English speaker, I am sure that I am doing mistakes, especially those related to word misplacing and subject-verb agreement, problems that an English speaking person would notice just reading a page of the book. I think I also have a tendency to form sentences and phrases which a native English speaker would not say or will find weird. Hence, it would be great if you could take a look at the book. There are pages not written by me, but there is no problem with theme for they are in Spanish. Probably I will translate them or even replace them by pages with the format described above.

Once you take a look at the book, you will see the way I work (or, because of the lack of material, get, at least, a little idea of it). I say that because, if you like it, I can help you somehow with the Spanish book here.

I will be waiting your answer.

Thank you. Your friend Alephcero (Consultame).

XHTML images and files

Thanks for contacting me about those images and XHTML files. I'd like to license those under the public domain. However, I don't really know the exact procedure for doing so; could you do that? I don't check my user talk very frequently anymore (it was just a coincidence that I got your message), so respond to me at microdan -at- gmail -dot- com if there's a problem with this. LittleDan 19:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Once again, I agree to license all of my XHTML-related works under the public domain. I have authored them myself. LittleDan 23:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much

You'd be surprised how much in the Ada.pdf is automatic from LaTeX however. Course, converting the document from wiki to LaTeX is the real issue, but its not like the precise locations are determined by me :-p. Actually, most of it is the default that LaTeX would do. --Dragontamer

what's with all the user categories?

Just curious :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 01:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm going through Special:Wantedcategories. I have a few different ideas about categorisation, but I need to know where everything is first. --User:Iamunknown 01:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Cats are Very Good Thing, IMO :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 01:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Oni

Good call. Didn't realize that book had all those pages under it at the time. -withinfocus 02:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Nosy

Cos I spotted it - the temp sysop thing is a very good idea - I wanted the same. BUT it is a real big deal to remove sysop status (even when folks are quite happy). --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you had a look at the Wikiversity mentorship system? --SB_Johnny | ^talk 13:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't. I'd like to get involved at Wikiversity, but I honestly don't know where to start, nor if I could even help. Do you have any suggestions? --User:Iamunknown 16:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion - yes - don't let Johnny poach you, stay here! <g>, BTW you have mail --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikiversity is looking more for content than cleanup these days :). I was just meaning how the RFA's are done... rather than open votes, candidated are just adopted by a mentor for a month, then "confirmed" after a month by an open vote. The mentor is responsible for the candidate until the open vote, and would in theory request desysopping if the "trainee" went astray. It's worked pretty well so far, though of course there is a danger of cabalism.

OTOH, if you're interested in plants, maybe you'd consider contributing to the Bloom clock project? :-)--SB_Johnny | ^talk 19:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Help page

When you are awake - can we work on the "what are we trying to provide help" on page. I feel this would help with the structure of pages that we would need for help/discussion/policy etc. Get the sleep tho & all the best --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Idea on the Staff Lounge

Why not just create a Forum, a mailing list, or another form of mass communication? I understand we are a Wiki and all... but a public forum has its advantages. I'm just brainstorming here... but I really can't think of a massive disadvantage of a forum. --Dragontamer 02:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Wikiproject Authority

My purpose for this is not to grant this particular wikiproject with any additional "authority" over this or that page, but instead to create a dedicated group of people who are willing to do it. The Wikibooks:Featured books page hasnt been maintained recently, especially now that we aren't doing BOTM or COTM anymore. It used to be that once a book won either set of voting, the name of that book would be added to the featured books page. If we aren't doing BOTM or COTM, we need a new mechanism for keeping this page up to date. Notice also that any wikibookian can be considered a member of any wikiproject, without having to "register" or anything. In other words, we can say that anybody who does update the featured books page can be considered a de facto member of that project. Also, the establishment of that wikiproject page as a centralized discussion area for maintaining the featured books list will only help to ease a process that had too many questions before. What we have now is:

1. a dedicated place for discussing these books, creating criteria, and voting
2. a place for people to get together as a community, instead of individuals just trying to promote their own books
3. a standardized mechanism for finding books, judging them, and advertising them

The wikiproject has authority because the members have authority to make changes and be bold. If you don't like the wikiproject idea, i suggest you propose something better. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 20:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

If you don't like my solution to the problems, or if you think i've misdiagnosed the problems entirely, that's fine. I dont and cant expect everybody to agree with everything I do. If you are not interested in it, you certainly don't need to join any wikiproject at all. You are, however, still allowed to make changes to pages as you see fit, being a perfectly bold and good-natured wikibookian. My recent agenda is the creation and expansion of these new wikiprojects, and since they are based on volunteerism, I dont think we need to get any community concensus to establish them, or to maintain them. People join if they want, and dont join if they dont want, and it shouldnt change the ability of any wikibookian to accomplish any goal. Some people seem to think it would be helpful, and I agree. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Proxy blocks...

Just saw your question to Derbeth... the account creation issue doesn't really matter, since you couldn't use an account from those IPs (they're fully blocked, both for named accounts and anons). See meta:WM:OP for details. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 20:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:ASPCite

No. If it's a bother to have it template space I can userfy it, but ASP cite is where I'm listing citations for a chapter of the book, and the DSMCites follow the recommended verbiage for direct quoting the DSM for free usage. I'm in the act of researching for another burst of writing at the moment.--Elaragirl 22:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Na, it doesn't matter. Would you mind include it (not substitute it) somewhere, though? I occasionally work on Special:Unusedtemplates, and it's one of the first I see. That was my only issue. And glad to see your back. :-D --Iamunknown 01:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Electronics Images

I'd be happy to take a look at these images for you. Small subsets of the untagged images are a managable problem, but as you are finding out yourself, tagging all the untagged images is a very large (and possibly overwhelming) problem. I think I should be able to take care of all these images, I think there might be suitable replacements on commons. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 13:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Notes

I'm very agitated tonight, and I think that the more messages I write, the less friendly they will become. Before i send out any more emails or messages on this issue, I've solicited some opinions from other members, and am going to take some advice before I do anything else.

On that note, what are your opinions on this matter? You and I tend to disagree so frequently, that you might bring a fresh perspective to the table. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 23:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the current goings-on have made the atmosphere here at Wikibooks very tense and agitating. And honestly, I am unsure what the original scope or intent of the arbitration proceedings were. I read the correspondence on the mailing list archives and on various talk pages, but that didn't help out. It appears / I think that the whole process went much faster than Robert anticipated, and I agree that now it seems to be dragging on, particularly because Rob has not been around lately.

I do not hold anything against Robert. I do not think the arbitration proceedings were misguided. Robert recognized what he perceived to be a problem, and he tried to help out. He didn't want the proceedings to spill over into other domains, which I think was a good point. In the past, from what I have read, higher intervention from Jimbo was devastating. And from the number of Wikibookians at the beginning of 2006 compared with the number at the end of 2006, it certainly appears that was the case.

I just don't know what to do in regards to Panic's behavior. It is not inherently reprehensible, but it is at least socially reprehensible. To be blunt, he has made the working environment miserable: it is unfriendly, agitating, confusing, and frustrating for many people: for contributors to both C++ wikibooks that have existed, in particular darklama, James Dennett, and paddu; for administrators, including you, SBJohnny, darklama (again), Rob; and for the general wikibooks contributors, which at least I can attest to.

I don't want to step on Robert's toes, and so I don't think that the proceedings should be closed immediately. I don't think Panic would buy into that, even though the proposal you made is likely better than anything the arbitration proceedings will result in. And I cannot imagine what Robert will do when he comes back. From reading the mailing list, he appeared to hope that the issue would work itself out; well, it hasn't. Panic is as argumentative as ever and the proceedings have brought Wikibooks to a stand-still.

I probably shouldn't say this on-wiki, but here goes: If I had to make a choice, I think I might ban Panic indefinitely. He is a valuable and vigorous contributor. But there are (were) two valuable and vigorous contributors (James Dennett and darklama) who have been ousted and exhausted by him. I'd rather have two contributors than one. I wish I could believe that just working with Panic would work out. But I don't. People have tried talking to him, working with him, posting at this request for comment, and arbitrating. The preliminary results from the arbitration appear to say that none of these will work.

That being said, I do not think any action should be taken with at least talking to Robert. If he is willing to continue the arbitration, then he should. If his absence is at all indicative of an unwillingness to continue (which I highly doubt), then take whichever action you will.

Voilà...my thoughts. Finally. --Iamunknown 03:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the reply. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 03:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

RePanic

I wasn't afraid of it, i knew it was going to happen. I told rob when he started the arbitration that when panic didn't get his way, he was going to make an appeal to the next highest authority. I am confident, however, that the stewards won't take his side on any of this. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 18:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

re:Images

First, I am happy that you think I have the authority (or perhaps the "charm") to ask people to cease and desist whichever projects they have been working on. I do understand your frustration with the whole image problem. And while we are on the subject, I would like to personally thank you for your efforts in this area. It's a project that is as tedious as it is unglamorous, and you certainly deserve some sort of pat-on-the-back, or a barnstar, or whatever it is that we give each other as a sign of respect.

I'll start the crusade against the de-linking ASAP. Good luck. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Apologies

I would like to apologise for any extra work that i may have caused you with my removal of images from the freeware pages. I was unaware of any cleanup project regarding this and was simply attempting to help clear the backlog of images that are copyrighted. Once again, my apologies. Urbane User (Talk) (Contributions) 12:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:Notes and Images

I share your frustration in many of these issues, and before I try and give you any answers or solace, I would like to remind you that you are just a volunteer here. Even though we all have great visions and plans for this place, if you stress yourself out, burn out, and stop contributing (i've seen it many times before), all your hard work and the time you spent stressed out and frustrated will have been wasted. In short, don't worry too much, and don't work yourself too hard!!

I agree with you about the frustration in not having a finite image policy (or even a policy that has rules, and not just helpful tips) is a big problem, and one that this community has never been eager to address. The issue of fair use is a difficult one as well, although I have very mixed opinions about it. I think that fair use images are a bad idea, because of the extra licensing and permissions that need to be worried about. However, fair use text excerpts serve an important part in many books, especially annotated texts. All things considered, I would like to mandate that all images must be uploaded to commons, and that no images should be allowed to be uploaded here. I doubt highly that such a rule will ever be accepted here, no matter how many problems it would solve in the present and the future.

As to Javascript, I would not call myself an "expert" on the topic, and I might not even go so far as to call myself "adept", "proficient", or even "literate" in Javascript. What little JS I've been able to write was typically heavily adapted from scripts that other people have written, with a little improvisation drawing from my experience programming Java and C++. Anything I can write, you can likely write faster and better. If you absolutely need help with some Javascript, you might do well to ask User:Darklama. He's helped me with many of my scripts.

If you need anything else, please don't hesitate to ask. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 03:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:Collapse.gif

G'day mate, what are your thoughts on this image? I thought maybe it was a {{free screenshot}}, but it has text on it (really basic, generic PHP, but still, text that someone's typed in). Similarly, Image:Fig2.gif which is further down the same page. Also, any further news on w:Template:GFDL-presumed? Webaware ^talk 09:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding, because Notepad++ is licensed for use under GPL, the interface, icons, etc. that are produced solely by the program (as in when you first load the program) are also under the GPL. (It could get tricky that this program is programmed with Visual.net and compiled with a Microsoft-owned compiler, but I would recommend safely assuming that we won't be held liable.)

The insignificant but non-software related edits (the arrows, etc.) could be licensed under any license, but I think we could justify licensing them with PD-ineligible unless we want to adopt Commons' "best practice" policy of demanding sources even when the image is obviously ineligible for copyright (which I would approve of).

So in regards to Image:Collapse.gif, if the collapsing tree is not a product of the native Windows functions, I think that it would be licensed under GPL for the interface. The manually-added arrows and text would be PD-ineligible. We should consider recreating it and reuploading it, though, so we can explicitly release rights. (I'll do it later this week if I have time unless you want to.)

I don't know about Image:Fig2.gif. I think that if the interface is specifically the product of a Microsoft product (which I think it is), it would qualify as fair use.

I think the fair use license you gave Image:Npp.logo2.gif is appropriate. I looked through the entire Notepad++ CVS at Sourceforge, downloaded the source to double check, and installed the program: the logo from the website is not used in any fashion in the program. And I can find no evidence on the website that the logo is licensed for free use.

On Template:GFDL-presumed, I just haven't copied it yet. I'll do that right now. I hope it won't cause a stir with other users. Whiteknight and darklama were the only folks on IRC when I asked about it. I'll just do it and see where we go from there. Finally, sorry for such a long reply. :( --Iamunknown 04:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't think that the compiler has anything to do with the licensing of screenshots of the text editor - Notepad++ is licensed by GPL, which should be good enough.

Secondly, it sounds like maybe you have the two images confused with each other. Collapse is a screenshot of Notepad++ showing some trivial PHP code in the editor, and demonstrating the .NET-style collapsing contexts, whereas Fig2 is a screenshot of some folders in the Windows Explorer, either directly in Windows or in a Save As dialog window within Notepad++.

The issue with Collapse is whether there is a problem because of the code shown. The code in question is completely trivial PHP, but previous chats we've had led me to think that maybe that doesn't matter here – which is basically where my question was going: is this code trivial enough to allow the screenshot to be classed as free under GPL, or does it need a separate license?

I reckon that the Fig2 image should be fair use, but you may be right about the annotations. I won't get in your way if you want to recreate it before the weekend, but if you don't, it's mine on Saturday (Aussie time)!

I'm looking forward to using GFDL-presumed, especially on the many chemistry-related images, and some electronic circuits. I reckon that it makes sense. If it gets a knock, then I guess Visio will be busy again...

And don't worry, I prefer responses with detail in them than something too terse to convey any meaning :-) Webaware ^talk 05:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Here goes:

1. Robert and others have mentioned before that owner of the copyrights to a compiler technically own part of the rights to the compiled program and thus part of the rights to the program output. I'd have to find the case citations they mentioned. It is ridiculous, however, that we would be held liable for distributing otherwise free software that was compiled with a non-free compiler.
2. Let me clarify regarding Image:Collapse.gif. If the "+" and "-" graphics are part of the native Windows interface, then the screenshot would be in part fair use. I am, however, unsure whether the collapsing lines (not tree) are part of the native Windows interface. If the collapsing lines and the associated iconography are freely licensed, then the screenshot at large would be licensed under the GNU GPL license, and the trivial PHP code and added arrow would be licensed under whatever license the licensor decided (although IMO it is ineligible for copyright).
3. (see above)
4. Regarding Image:Fig2.gif, a separate license would need to be specified for the native Windows interface (fair use) and then added arrows (PD-ineligible or PD/PD-user/PD-self).
5. I am still trying to deprecate the GFDL-presumed template, but I don't want the untagged images hanging over my/your/Wikibooks' head in the meantime.

Best, Iamunknown 06:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

1. I'd ignore such things, as they can be taken too far (e.g. what about the OS that the compiler was running on? etc.)
2. The "+" and "-" graphics are not part of Windows per se, but are part of the .NET support libraries; Notepad++ was written in .NET and uses its presentation services, which is where it borrows the collapsing contexts from. I guess that means "fair use" at best then. That aside, the code shown is the issue. If we need to have a license for it, then we are dependent on the original uploader to qualify the licensing situation and cannot help them in this instance. Thus, they must fix it or lose it. Since you've already installed Notepad++, do you fancy rebuilding this two-stage screenshot?
3. see what above? :-)
4. I guess one of us needs to rebuild Fig2 then. I'll do it Saturday unless you do it before then.
5. GFDL-presumed is getting a good workout already. And rightly so, I reckon.

Oh, and I watchlist talk pages until a conversation is properly over, so no need to drop me a pointer on my talk page too. cheers, Webaware ^talk 06:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

1. I will too. It gets ludicrously complex trying to decide who owns what rights, and there is little precedent to indicate the Wikimedia Foundation would be held liable.
2. I'll do it tomorrow or Thursday.
3. Point #2 on indent #3. :)
4. Indeed.
5. I've seen.

Excellent. I wish others would too. :( --Iamunknown 07:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

(reset tab) Oh, and good night. Best, Iamunknown 07:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Nighties, I'm off to dinner soon. But a bit more GFDL-presuming to do first... :-) Webaware ^talk 07:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

subst

Is there a reason why you like to use subst for things like user templates on RFA? I find it quite annoying to see, edit with, and browse the logs of. -withinfocus 02:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I substituted the user templates on RFA because I think that the unsubstituted templates are an unnecessary load, however insignificant, upon the server. --Iamunknown 04:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

New Media Art book

Hi, you commented on the New Media Art book (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/New_Media_Art) that I'm working on putting up on Wikibooks.

I've been putting together a wiki-version of an academic art book called New Media Art, by Mark Tribe. Mark teaches an entire course based on the book at Brown University, and I know it is used in classes at other institutions. I started to put it up on wikibooks, since that seemed to be where it fit best (rather than wikipedia or wikiversity). You can see the content so far at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/New_Media_Art. I was soon warned by two editors that it was not appropriate content -- that it was encyclopedic/macropedic and thus not a "textbook." Though the content of the book is structured in an encyclopedic way (a series of sections, each on a particular artist or artist group), it can still be considered an art historical text. The introduction, for instance, gives a broad overview of the New Media art tradition and ties together the artists discussed in the rest of the book. I've already been told that the content I've put up so far will probably be deleted. Where does this book belong, if not in wikibooks?

Your help is greatly appreciated! I'm new to the whole wiki communication thing, but I think you can leave me a comment on my "talk" page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User_talk:Lblissett

Thanks again. Lblissett 20:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Shane

Abt Nepal Bhasa

Sorry for late information but I have tried to answer your questions related to Nepal Bhasa here. Please feel free to ask more questions if required. Thank you.--Eukesh 15:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

commons:Image:Roma2001-02.png

Hi, I found your request on it.wikipedia. I put the information on the original version uploaded on it.wikipedia (the image is still there). Cruccone

Main page

I have started a discussion about this at Wikibooks:Staff_lounge#Changes_to_main_page where it suggests Wikibooks:Nearly_complete as a main page. RobinH 13:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Any news?

On the wikijunior cat images?? I know you said you were contacting the uploader - thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 16:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I haven't received a reply since my second e-mail to him (I received a reply to my first). I'll start looking into other options. --Iamunknown 19:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I know it bugs you when stuff drags on - I'll not delete for now (doubt anyone other than Az will bother either). Let me know if I can help --Herby ^{talk thyme} 19:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Commons Ticker

Ihad brought up the idea of installing a commons ticker here some time ago, and the proposal was not met with much enthusiasm. I will take a look at it soon, and if it's not that big a deal, I will set it up soon. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm reading over the checklist now, and If you would be willing to set up the necessary pages and templates, I can do the rest. I don't have time tonight (or tomorrow, most likely) to set up all the necessary pages, but I should have the time on IRC to get the ticker installed. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll do it later tonight. When I read that the admin would need to go on IRC, I thought of you, but then worried that it might be troublesome because Duesentrieb may live in Germany, i.e. the difference would be several hours. --Iamunknown 01:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll take care of my part, regardless of the time-zone issues. I can be on IRC morning or night, if needed. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You work very quickly! I will do what I can now, but I wont be on IRC until later this evening, so any steps that require IRC will be put off until then. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 14:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll add my name to the request too... I'll be on IRC on and off today. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 16:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Image Posted!!

First of all I'd like to thank you for preventing this image (conciertodeconciertos.jpg) form being erased. Even thought, I cannot tell the kind of permission the image has, so I ask you to help me please. My user address is juandv, and better for me if you kindly help me telling what to do in Spanish. Thanks. 21:15, 19 February 2007 (GMT -5)

Archive page (SL)

Excellent - thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

qr-em

Removed mine - happy with your views (won't get wars from me!) but keep an eye I guess. Still looking forward to the explanation of the other one - offline will be fine --Herby ^{talk thyme} 08:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In view of the content of your email to me you may wish to explain this edit [1], it seems to run contrary to something you said. I look forward to your response --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It does. I can offer several explanations, but they would only be excuses, and poor ones at that. Instead, I've reverted my edit and have begun my own page. --Iamunknown 23:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Mail 2 --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Lifespan

Sorry I did not remember to delete this module myself. I was demonstrating the page creation process for someone who would like to develop a Wikibook later on. It can certainly be deleted, and sorry again for my forgetfulness.

Pete 18:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

WB:RFA

I have re-nominated you for adminship, because it is my sincere belief that you deserve it. I hope that you accept your nomination this time. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 00:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:Commons Ticker

I haven't heard a thing about it, i was checking Duesentribe's talk page every day for a while, but i've sort-of given that up. I'll check now and report back to you. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 18:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There hasnt been a response on his talk page, and the request page seems to be stagnant. I'll post another message somewhere, but I dont know what else we can do. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 18:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Softbodytut.gif

I think i have sorted out the copyright problem, but im not sure so could you check for me. I can honestly say the image is my own work, made with the help of Blender3D -- Eb264 (talk) --Eb264 17:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Telescope Making

Hello iamunknown. Where have I seen that moniker before? I thought I would post a quick note here just to let you know I am back and will be working on the Telescope Making book again. I have a draft of the first of the materials pages and once it is spell checked I will post it.

The images seemed to read better, at least I thought so, than the formula wrapped oddly with text. It is really moot to me, just so the average reader can understand what I am trying to say. I will be posting pictures of the process of making the mirror. I had planned to use the PNG format as it is the smallest I have found. Will that work for you? I need to flesh out some of the earlier chapters in regards to the links explaining unknown topics.

--Vorblesnak 19:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Work done today on Telescope Making

I changed some of the edits you did with the formulas, leaving the formulas, they are nice, and moving the text away from them. I also posted the next section on finding the materials for the mirror. I tried to stay within the layout that you have started for the book.

--Vorblesnak 21:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sysop

Due to your full support on WB:RFA, you are now a sysop. -withinfocus 13:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Woot! Congrats Iamunknown! Let me know if you need help figuring out the new toys :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 13:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The new tabs look weird. I guess I'll have to get used to 'em. :-) --Iamunknown 20:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Ooopsie

This is not a gripe, or criticism, but information and communication... but... I wish you hadn't done this!-- any such 'Wikipedia' (Project name prefixed) category could have been (as is in process elsewhere, probably in Meta) more generally as [[Category:{{SITENAME}} templates_used_on_category_pages]]. But NBD... I'm sure you were just doing some cleanup tasks.

I think I've seen your edit trails in other clean-up tasks and (I believe) in creations of other red linked categories I'd left red links pending a more stable picture ala the various sisters. WikiProject template sharing hasn't even been announced because of such loose ends--some sites get cranky, in particular if you start messing with their categories <g>-- so I'm very glad it was you, rather than me. NBD-- let me be the first to congratulate you on your forthcoming adminship, and figure on deleting that once you get your sys-op bit. No hurry -- there never is off the main namespace pages of any wiki! (That whole set of templates needs overhauled, which process has been started in ones and twos, but is very back burner. Should be able to update the whole set by months end once categorization issues are addressed--the real hold up in all M:MP:TSP matters, which in turn is delayed by the new versions of {{interwikitmp-grp}} and Template:Interwikicat-grp, again, in process. Hah! See, Haven't even imported the later here yet! See Meta's here: Template:Tlxm. Being a mature long established sister, I was treading lightly, plus your general category names match very well with the set we're currently working with, and so forth, so there was little need.)

As it turns out, TSP and I had the influence on Wikipedia to get many 'SITENAME' prefixed names 'Omitted' to enhance portability during the recent templates categories re-organization on WP, so this one is just going to be Templates used in categories... 'Templates used on category pages' is now both a combined soft and hard redirect pending the new category redirect system software that is in 'Template:Wpd'. (Keeping track of seven sister's category usage is at times confusing, that's why the new templates will do that instead.)

{{Commonstmp}} itself will be relatively unused for the most part hereafter, as {{interwikitmp-grp}} has the broader job. In the main, it will be relegated to tagging specialty templates that are used on the Commons and whichever sister sites has dual or at most three way needs. For example: Template:Tlxc was just converted for selective and strategic tagging of categories and galleries on the Commons, whereas it is in wide use on Wikipedia where it originated.

It may have some scope on Wikisource (I haven't looked into that yet), and perhaps someday, here, given enough source books. Hence it's not a good candidate for being interwikitmp-grp tagged at the moment. So that's what the older little tags will have as a new role in the scheme of things. I'd like to invite you into the TSP project. It's actually a bit past the time that I should involve others outside Meta/Commons/Wikipedia (though, that's a good start but for the contributors are 'occasional' and not heavily involved. Maybe they just have confidence in me? Nice thought, that! <G>) But help and local knowledge are certainly now needed, so how about it. From what I can see, the categorization of templates here is badly in need of some maintenance and systemization similar to that we just reorganized on Wikipedia (Many templates still need recatted, but the category structure is now in place, and sensible.)

The other part of that is local knowledge of templates with wide applicability or potential is and would be very useful. You need not be a template guru (I'm not really) to be able to reason that a template might have a use on such and such sister site. No more do you have to be a genius to help document such tools, so that others can find them. The name of the game as far as I'm concerned is enhancing the productivity of other editors... a good thing that--we're all volunteering time after all, and helping people maximize there efforts helps the foundation's projects and other people -- both many times over. Not a bad thing at all.

(Some irony here--this composed to you last week w/o save in this browser, before the imbroglio on the commons on linking categories, et. al.) ttfn // FrankB 14:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to remember you

Wikibooks:Policies and guidelines/Vote/Be Bold is running, try to cast your vote (a list of policies/guidelines status is available Wikibooks:Policies_and_guidelines/Proposed_reform. Txs. --Panic 19:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks Panic. A lot has happened here since I was last here. Time to dive back in! --Iamunknown 20:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Question

I was needing to add some chapter summaries to the book and to the printout version, but Template:Stage short is not wanted on the print out can't the template be changed so it doesn't get printed (the page is protected, and the template has not much value on a printed version of the text that is static)... --Panic 18:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Done --Iamunknown 19:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, there is a problem it now looks like

text

status

text

and before was: text status text (there are 2 new carriage returns/line feeds more) --Panic 19:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Sorry about that. --Iamunknown 01:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Txs, no problem but some books would have looked weird from a while :) --Panic 01:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

stage short

Hi Iamunknown,

Adding the div metadata thing to stage_short has caused it to plop down a carraige return after the stage icon. Any chance that could be addressed? I typically use the icon before the text it describes as it lines up nicer that way. Thanks in advance. -- Jim Thomas (aka Jomegat) 22:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops. Looks like Panic said about the same thing. -- Jim Thomas (aka Jomegat) 22:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Sorry. --Iamunknown 01:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! No worries! -- Jim Thomas (aka Jomegat) 01:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops again. I'm still getting the extra CR's. See Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Nature for an example. -- Jim Thomas (aka Jomegat) 01:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Not for me. Try this link. --Iamunknown 01:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

OK - I guess I had a cached copy or something. Thanks for fixing it. -- Jim Thomas (aka Jomegat) 03:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

email

I sent you an email, just trying to explain a few things. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 20:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal Attacks

I am not sure about why I am the target for such huge personal attacks, particularly on my user page. Yes, I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding going on at the present, and most of this is miscommunication. And it is my belief that it stems back to what happened with my getting involved with first getting involved with the arbitration process and then my backing Panic.

This has come to the point that I'm not even really sure I want to stick around here on Wikibooks anymore. The one and only reason I would like to stay here is to perhaps take some of these arrows from these young hot heads and have them pointed at me instead of at somebody else, but something must be done about the civility of the discussions that are taking place here on Wikibooks.

This simply must end somewhere. I don't know if this is going to require some outside intervention, or if this is going to be the tone of this project from now on. I know this is just a small handful of contributors here, and perhaps I should take that into perspective.

Any effort you can do to inject some civility into these discussions and to try and discuss rational differences of opinion on the various issues that have been raised would be appreciated.

In terms of dealing with the "ban on fair use", I did mis-read the date that the images needed to be deleted as 2007 instead of 2008, and I havn't been given a chance to apologize on that point. Philosophically, I also disagree with Whiteknight that we need to ban any fair use uploads to this project without a formal EDP in place, but I don't know how to express that opinion without causing a huge firestorm of discussion here either. I do realize that he acknowledges his mistake of modifying the proposed fair use policy in so drastic of a manner, and it appears that my understanding of his position on this issue may also be off.

Anyway, you have been a voice of calm and reason throughout all of this, and I appreciate this moderate tone you have displayed. Other than reminding people to be civil in their discussions, I'm not asking anything more from you. --Rob Horning 11:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Robert, thank you for your kind note. I assumed that Whiteknight's note on your talk page was a culmination of a series of misunderstandings. In all my interactions with you and in reading your posts to various Wikimedia-related venues, I remain convinced that you have every intention to improve Wikibooks. Same with ever currently-active contributor on Wikibooks. While each individual may have his or her own opinion about editorial- and content-management, my wish is that we not let that get in between constructive dialogue.

I sometimes feel that by pointing out the subtle distinctions between ethical choices and opinions I am perceived as wikilawyering. That is not my intention. There is a very real distinction and, unless they are pointed out, one argument is severely weakened. If a group can agree on an ethical code then any unethical action is simply wrong; if a group disagrees on opinions unrelated to ethics then a given action is not necessarily wrong.

I also find the widespread mistrust of others' intentions both here and on Wikipedia disturbing. I have read multiple documents regarding the concept of "assume good faith", but feel that they fail to address what should be done. It is my opinion that every contributor who demonstrates that they intend to improve Wikibooks should not be deemed a vandal or a troll. I admit that I have grown tired in the past of Panic's actions. I regret that I have. Panic may be a tendentious editor, but the galvanizing calls that he is a "bad-faith editor," a "troll" or a "vandal" are, in my opinion, baseless. He has demonstrated that he has every intention to improve the C++ wikibook.

While there are certain benefits related to maintaining a small community such as at Wikibooks rather than a large community such as at Wikipedia, I find the drawbacks frustrating. At Wikipedia there are a variety of opinions and the variety of sensible opinions are rarely in a minority. Thus sensible people can disagree and not easily be shut down or insulted without rational discussion with other such people. Here at Wikibooks there are few active contributors to policy-related discussions and it seems that you, who maintain a different, valid and sensible but different opinion, are subject to personal attacks. I'm sorry that you are and I am sorry that I have not been around more often. I maintain what I consider to be valid opinions about proposed Wikibooks policies, philosophies and processes but have felt resistance since day one when I came back in November.

Robert, I would understand and respect your decision to leave if that is what you choose. I know that you have real-life obligations to deal with including jobs, family and society. But I hope that you do not decide to leave. I appreciate your knowledge of Wikibooks-history and your knowledge of copyright law. I appreciate your detailed posts and what I perceive as your support for a "Wikibooks is not just for textbooks" model. I am afraid that I will be the lone contributor who maintains a similar philosophy if you leave.

I hope that I may remain calm and reasonable. I find that I re-read many of my posts; sometimes I do not post what I first wrote up because I decide that it will either not help Wikibooks or it is unnecessary and will only serve to drive a wedge between relationships. And, again, thank you very much for your kind note. I will continue participating in discussions and, hopefully, bring them down to their proper level where opinions can be considered based on their merit and not be necessarily disregarded as "wrong". --Iamunknown 06:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)