Talk:Wikijunior/Archive 2

From Wikibooks, the open-content textbooks collection

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 New Title Policy - Revisited 2 Building Awareness for Wikijunior and Wikibooks 2.1 Logos and mascot 3 What's going on here? 4 What's up? 5 separate project? 6 Bookshelf 7 Just a note 8 Suggestion 9 Vandalism Warning 10 Published book LANGUAGES 11 Ladybird alternatives

New Title Policy - Revisited

I think that the current new title policy is stifling the growth of Wikijunior. I would like to see us add more titles and grow Wikijunior a little more quickly. I'm not sure if I know the perfect recipe but each time we launch a book, we get new contributors with an interest in working on it. My idea is this. Instead of launching a single new book quarterly, we launch a new book whenever there is enough support.

One way of doing this would be to check the voting at the beginning of each month. If any of the titles has 5 or more votes from users with more than 20 edits, the leading vote-getter will launch. Voting will start over and the next month the leading vote-getter will launch. If no title has 5 or more votes, there is no title launch that month and votes continue to accrue until the next month, or the following month.

Some of the advantages of this proposal:

• allows us to potentially launch 12 books a year instead of just 4.
• good book ideas can be launched faster.
• sets a minimum interested contributor requirement.
• more dynamic development environment may attract additional contributors.

Does anyone else have an opinion? --xixtas ^talk 03:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm all in favour. I don't like the current system as it deters editors who have to wait 3 months before they can start their book. Xania ^talk 16:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the original "policy" that was even enforced through page deletions was to have only the three "standard" Wikijunior books until one of them was published and available on Amazon.com. I thought that was a silly policy on the whole, and there were many additional book ideas that would be appropriate for Wikijunior than were originally offered. Still, the idea here is that we ought to strongly encourage new participants to work with existing content rather than creating hundreds or thousands of new book titles that simply sit undeveloped, such as is found on Wikibooks:Alphabetical classification.

On the whole, this title selection process has been rather successful, even though it has been subverted a few times in the sense that some participants here have simply gone on and created the Wikijunior title anyway without even going through the new book of the quarter process. Some very amazing books have been written, including some content which has consistantly stayed at the leading edge of being some of the best of Wikimedia.

The reason for only launching one book per quarter was to consider that the number of Wikijunior participants at the time the process was initiated was rather small, and it was thought that trying to put together a whole Wikijunior book in less than 3 months before the next cool project was started seemed a bit overwhelming. Simply put, there weren't enough participants to justify a new book on a monthly basis. The original intention was to change this to a monthly installment eventually as Wikijunior grew and more people could be found to sustain such a level of development.

In fact, one of the original "objectives" of Wikijunior was to have enough content that we could set up a monthly periodical where kids would receive a new Wikijunior book each month in the mail from a Wikijunior content publishing house. Somebody even went through the effort to register an ISSN number (like the ISBN, but for magazines). The idea was to try and have enough content "in the pipeline" of development at various stages so volunteers wouldn't feel pressured to meet a hard deadline. I don't know if this will ever be done, but it is certainly something to think about.

My only concern about this current proposal to move to a monthly book topic is again due to the level of participation. Even at the current interval, the next book title to be displayed and worked on is only 10 days away (on July 1st), and will likely be World War II as the topic. Due to the removal of the Wikijunior templates on the Main Page, the new title vote or even Wikijunior:New Title Suggestions page has lost quite a bit of the participation that it enjoyed previously. I understand that this is a proposal to modify how this may be selected as well, giving a minimum threshold as well if there isn't that level of participation, but is a month enough time to get this book suggestion developed enough before we move on? --Rob Horning 00:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Some things that I have observed about how Wikijunior when we launch a book:

• We get new contributors who come to work specifically on that book.
• The rate of edits on the book is very high for the first few weeks and then goes into a steep decline eventually leveling off to a fairly constant low level of activity after a couple months.
• Activity on Wikijunior as a whole goes up.

I think that this revision in the new title policy is worth trying. I don't think we'll actually end up launching a book each month (at least not right away). I do think we can give each book a good start in just a month. If you look at the history of book top pages and compare the state of the page after the first month with the state after three months, I think you'll find that there is usually little difference. --xixtas ^talk 03:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Building Awareness for Wikijunior and Wikibooks

I think Wikijunior is a very valuable resource, though it is under-resourced and certainly has room to grow. I have decided to "be bold" and become an advocate for Wikijunior in the Open Ed community and the broader educational technology arena (primarily K-12). I am hoping that over the next year or so this will result in more people joining the community and contributing.

One way to do this is to get Wikijunior books listed in some of the Open Ed repositories so that more people know about them. To move this ahead, I have started creating metadata for OER Commons, which will then also feed into ccLearn and other sites. I am starting with the featured books that are educational in nature.

If you have any feedback on this, I'd love to hear it. Also if you know of a mature book that is not currently "featured" or if you'd like to send me an abstract of any book you've worked on or are familiar with to include, that would be helpful too.

Once this is further along and in OER Commons, I'll post an update. Kfasimpaur 22:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC) talk

One of the things I believe is necessary is for a physical print version of some of the Wikijunior books to become available, that can be sold at more or less reasonable prices. This is a very hard chicken-or-egg problem that is very difficult to crack, and something that is going to take a fairly sizable hunk of real cash... and something that simply must come from outside of the Wikimedia Foundation. The WMF certainly is not interested in getting in the publishing business...especially after Brad Patrick pushed for the WMF as an ISP philosophy. When the WMF was Jimbo's private plaything it was much more reasonable to consider a publishing group.

It may also be useful to try and come up with a "best of Wikijunior" website.... where it can show some of the outstanding contributions that have been made over the years, but without the cruft that comes from the initial editing process due to the fact this is a Wiki. This is an idea which has been discussed several times over the past several years, but is something that I think is overdue at the moment. The problem with previous efforts to get this going was mainly a lack of communication with the major stakeholders, and the willingness to follow through. The wikijunior.org domain is owned by the WMF, and this is perhaps something that can be expanded upon by a dedicated individual who wants to get something going. I'll spell more out in another section on this talk page later.

The main thing is trying to get either or both of these efforts going... and the problems here with Wikijunior really are a microcosm for Wikibooks as a whole as well. I do believe that the K-6 market (more or less the primary target of the initial Wikijunior books) is an easier "market" to crack... particularly if we are not trying to make full textbooks but only supplementary materials. Genuine textbooks may be a bit tougher nut to crack.

The idea of advertising Wikijunior through educational websites is a good idea.... and I've seen Wikijunior mentioned a couple of times. Posting links to well developed Wikibooks titles is IMHO the best sort of "advertising" that can happen, and seems to be where Wikibooks does the best as well. Of course, some effort still needs to be done with some final "polishing" of the existing Wikijunior titles, and any help along those lines is always appreciated as well. --Rob Horning 11:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I support the proposal to establish a "stable" Wikijunior site.

A "stable" Wikijunior site would be easier to externally link to. --Jsigler (talk) 03:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: printed books, I'm not as convinced that is critical. Most schools I work with are much more interested in electronic books than print ones. However, if print books are a desirable outcome, there are many grants that would be relatively easy to secure. A more stable site and a strong partnership with the K-12 community would be essential though.

Kfasimpaur 16:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC) talk

I think having printed books that people can buy inexpensively is a desirable goal, but I think that having stable versions online is a critical next step in the development of Wikijunior. Also, thanks for getting his together, Karen. I've look at several OER sites and they are a little baffling to me. --xixtas ^talk 03:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above user; having the books released in printed format isn't neccesarily a critical acheivement. While it would, perhaps, make it easier for schools without internet access to obtain the books, having the books available online will make it easier overall for most schools. Furthermore, if they wish to have a paper copy of the book, they will be responsible for printing costs, which I honestly don't believe will be a serious hardship on the part of a school, considering the fact that 1) wikijunior books aren't especially lengthy and 2) most schools already have equipment and money set aside for printing costs. (such as for worksheets, exams, etc) The only setback is that most schools do not have color printers intended for larger scale printing jobs, so self-printed wikijunior books would end up being black and white, unless the school specifically set aside money to have the books printed up properly.

In addition, e-books tend to be easier to search (ctrl+F !), can be viewed at home or at school, and if the books aren't printed out, a lot of trees can be saved ^_^

I think that the printed books would be most useful, as I mentioned earlier, to those who do not have computers or internet access, such as poorer schools or schools in third world countries. --Winter (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I completely take back what I said about the books not being lengthy. I just looked at the Big Cats one and it's just a *little* too much to be printing out... I made my previous comment thinking in terms of the book I last contributed to (Ancient Egypt), which wasn't very long. But still I think that having the books available as e-books is more important. At least for now, while the books aren't as well known. Maybe when the books are more widely used and a demand for them in printed format is generated , then it would be a good idea, but for now, I think that e-books are the way to go. --Winter (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Logos and mascot

I think Wikijunior needs a logo like wikibooks has. Maybe something that looks like a childrens book cover with multicolored text like the KIDS heading on the Wikijunior front page. Colorful pictures are an important in childrens books. Adding covers of books to front page would make it more kid-friendly. Pictures and logo are good for marketing. I'd like to be be able to add a link from my class web site to our Wikijunior book: Famous Inventors using a logo, so it would be nice if there was one. --Jsigler (talk) 03:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jsigler, it's great to see your enthusiasm for the wikijunior project. As far as a logo goes, there is an ongoing process to select a new logo on meta see here. You are more than welcome to contribute to this discussion, and your input would be greatly appreciated. Reece (Talk) (Contributions) 21:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

There have been several updates to the proposed logos. We are nearing the end of the comment period, and we would love to have as much feedback and suggestions as we can before heading into the final voting phase for a new logo. There is even a proposed new mascot for Wikijunior, named Stiki Jr., a happy soul who loves to read and contribute to wikibooks designed for children. Please leave your comments and let us know what you think. --Willscrlt (Talk) 22:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What's going on here?

I'm really interested in putting some significant time into some of the Wikijunior books. My only hesitation is that it seems as though there is very little activity here. What I'm wondering and trying to gain a sense of, is how many people are involved and how much work is being done with these projects. Some of the books need some significant work and refinement that I know I'm not capable of doing alone. I don't really want to put a lot of time into books that will never be finished. Rmawhorter (talk) 01:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What's up?

A few concerns. Where is the vote for the next book? The Wikijunior title page links to a vote dated June 2007 which makes us look like we've stopped updating the website. It also looks a bit bad that the 'Wikijunior News' is dated November 2007 which also gives the impression that nothing is happening around here. In addition I'd like to add my Europe book to the little "bookshelf" image we have at the top of the page? How can I do this quickly without the need for any paint programs?--ЗAНИA ^talk 21:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

separate project?

It is too different from other WikiBooks content. Wouldn't you request it to be become a separate project? --Eugrus (talk) 18:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Eugrus, the prospect of wikijunior being a seperate project is something that has cropped up before, and there are people arguing both sides of the argument. As i see it, wikijunior's scope is very similar to that of wikibooks as a whole, and as such it belongs here. Yes it has a different audience, but the same criteria apply. More importantly however if wikibooks was moved to its own site, there would be fewer contributors to work on it, and at the minute wikijunior desperately needs more contributors. in the same light people would find it more dificult to locate the site's resources, with them no longer being on wikibooks. I hope this helps explain why thus far wikijunior has remained part of wikibooks. Perhaps in the future if wikijunior grows then a seperate project may be something that is pursued. Reece (Talk) (Contributions) 22:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Bookshelf

On the bookshelf, the title of the book "Science Experiments" is misspelled as "Science Eperiments". Can whoever made the title fix that, as I am not experienced with whatever I'd need to do to fix it? Bart133 (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the image with the typo. xixtas ^talk 12:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a note

In case anyone working here was interested in the Schools Wikipedia which we are a few weeks from completing for 2008/9. It is jointly done between the Wikimedia Foundation and a children's charity and is pretty successful in terms of having well over a million readers. It gets given away free to schools all over the place. The content is just Wikipedia content so the language is often complicated but it does have "adult" content removed, get selected around the schools curriculum and get checked for vandalism. AFAIK this is the only such project so perhaps we could do the clean up etc jointly with Wikijunior if there are people with time here? The overlap with non fiction projects for children is pretty striking so I hope no one minds the heads up. --BozMo (talk) 20:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

I'm unsure of where to suggest this, but how about some sort of non-English language book for young children, maybe as part of Wikijunior:Animal Alphabet? I've seen multiple books for young English-speaking children in which the alphabet of a different language is given, along with alphabet-book type pictures and words describing the pictures. Bart133 (talk) 00:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Warning

In light of the recent vandalism I thought about putting up a warning on the main page of Wikijunior. This warning should include nothing but commonly known facts about all Wikimedia projects. However, some readers and parents of readers might not be aware of these facts; thus, I think it is in the interest of everyone to state these facts as clearly as possible. My first draft is this:

Thank you for visiting Wikijunior! Wikijunior is currently part of Wikibooks, an open-content wiki project of the Wikimedia Foundation. As such it is vulnerable to vandalism, i.e., the malevolent inclusion of inappropriate or even illegal content. While the Wikibooks community tries hard to reduce vandalism to a minimum, there is a small chance that readers of Wikijunior will be exposed to vandalism. To reduce these chances, you are encouraged not to log in. Thank you for your understanding.

I think we should put such a warning message on the main page of Wikijunior as soon as possible. --Martin Kraus (talk) 09:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Since there were no comments or objections, I included the warning on the main page. --Martin Kraus (talk) 09:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Published book LANGUAGES

When I was in 7th grade -- back in the 1950s-- I got very facinated by languages and alphabets. I think juniors who would look at this book need to know that one pronounces some languages reading from RIGHT to left, such as aramic, hebrew, sanscrit, etc., Some of the texts one is asked to pronounced, could be easily transcribed as they are memorizing the text. How about including an appendix showing relations of some languages, such as those derived from Latin, etc. Also an alphabet list, to show the similiar pronunciation of the individual letters, alph*, beth, gam* and so on. Just a thought. A R Taylor (For the academics in the crowd, I have a doctorate in Education, a specialist in Instructional Systems, a Masters in Librarianship, etc.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ARTHUR41 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 25 April 2009.

Good idea. There already is a Wikijunior:Languages book but these suggestions could certainly be included.--ЗAНИA ^talk 22:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Ladybird alternatives

I was wondering if the intention of Wiki-Junior is to produce the type of books Ladybird did. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sfan00 IMG. In a nutshell, pretty much. The works produced will ultimately be similar on a number of levels to those publications. However the books created here may not necessarily be on the same topics or based on the same material. Hope this answers your question. Reece (Talk) (Contributions) 21:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)