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Contents 1 easy reading materials? 1.1 words to Το Μικρό Ποταμακι 2 notes about templates 2.1 Yerakina 2.2 Τα κλεφτόπουλα 2.3 Ο χορός της χελώνας ( Ιωάννης Πολέμης, 1862 - 1924) 3 Reorganization 3.1 Learning from the Book 3.2 Restructuring 3.3 Lesson Plan 3.4 Άσε 3.5 moving reorganization here 3.6 New reorganised lesson plan proposal (bite-sized) 3.7 Breathing marks 3.8 Image Warning 3.9 merging

[edit] easy reading materials?

Hi Andreas and 83.146.62.97 -- It's great to see that we have two native speakers working on the book now -- that's twice as many people available to clean up all my mistakes :-) Do either of you have any very easy reading materials that we could use in the early lessons? I haven't had much luck finding anything that's both easy and public domain. I was thinking that children's songs or folk songs might work well, since they might be in present tense, and use simple vocabulary and constructions. (But we'd want to avoid anything that used archaic language.) Once the past tense has been introduced, there are a lot more possibilities. Does anyone have Aesop in modern greek, in a version that's public domain? I also thought it would be interesting to use selections something by Alexandros Pallis, such as his dhimotiki Gospel of Matthew, or his translation of The Merchant of Venice, but I can't seem to find either online. Any ideas?--Bcrowell 23:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

How about the Greek National Anthem? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_national_anthem --83.146.62.97 00:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...the vocabulary is kind of difficult, and the sentences are long. How about something more like "One, two, buckle my shoe. Three, four, shut the door?" :-) Or did you mean for use in one of the later lessons? --Bcrowell 00:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are some recordings that might be relevant:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?flwpabib:10:./temp/~ammem_gHu7::

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?flwpabib:1:./temp/~ammem_wJoS::

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/flwpabib:@field(SUBJ+@od1(St.+Augustine,+Florida))

I can't understand the words, though. :-) --Bcrowell 01:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

This one has decent sound quality. It's a children's song. Can you folks make out the words?

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?flwpabib:11:./temp/~ammem_0hQ7::

--Bcrowell 01:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't access these files. It says "Temporary file not found. Display failed."--83.146.62.97 03:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see, the links don't work when you just put them in a browser. OK, try this:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/flwpahtml/flwpabibAudios1.html

Agapi pou ephyge makria Image:modern_greek_song_agapi.ogg

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/flwpahtml/flwpabibAudios4.html

To mikro potamaki Image:Modern greek song potamaki.ogg <------------- This one seems like a good possibility.

Yati-Yati (the second one)

To aidoni

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/flwpahtml/flwpabibAudios3.html

Oi vounisioi

Parakalo sychorise me

Proi-proi

--Bcrowell 03:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] words to Το Μικρό Ποταμακι

Here's what I've been able to decode:

Ποταμακι μου καλό,

----------, παρακαλώ.

Δεν μπορώ να ----- πηδήσω (?)

--------- να γυρίσω.

---------------------------

--------- και λουλουδάκια.

---------------------------

Δεν ------------------------

(repeat 1st verse)

--Bcrowell 23:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It's the first time I hear this song. The sound quality is not that good and I'm having great difficulty figuring out what the girl is saying. Sorry it doesn't make much sense.

Ποταμάκι μου καλό στάσου σε παρακαλώ

(the only verse I'm 100% positive)

δεν μπορώ να ________(?) απ' το μύλο να γυρίσω

(I really can't think of any word there, although it seems it ends in "κλείσω" or it might be something like "μείνω πίσω")

(μπουμ και μπουμ) (?) και πετραδάκια (αλλού κεντούν) (?) και λουλουδάκια

(hopefully it's just a sound game and not some words I cannot distinguish)

Το δικό σου το σκοπό(?) δεν θα βρω άσκοπο(?) (or να στον πω(?))

I've listened to it over 10 times I really can't do better than that!

The only remotely similar children's poem I've found is this one http://www.inarcadia.gr/edu/pe/ergasies/n-dimits03/ndimits17.htm

--83.146.62.97 09:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for trying! If it's that hard for a native speaker to make out, then I'm proud that I was able to puzzle out any of it at all :-) --Bcrowell 21:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] notes about templates

Here are some templates used in the book:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Template:Modern_Greek/audio_nonnative

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Template:Modern_Greek/fsi

[edit] Yerakina

The most popular folks dance is Kalamatianos/syrtos, and the most popular song is Γερακίνα: Thes are traditional lyrics and therefore there is no copyright.

Κίνησε η Γερακίνα
για νερό κρύο να φέρει
ντρουμπου-ντρουμπου-ντρουμπου-ντρουμ
τα βραχιόλια της βροντούν

Κι έπεσε μες στο πηγάδι
κι έβγαλε φωνή μεγάλη
ντρουμπου...

Κι έτρεξε ο κόσμος όλος
κι έτρεξα κι εγώ καημένος.
ντρουμπου...

Έριξα χρυσό κορδόνη
και την έπιασα απ τη ζώνη
ντρουμπου...

Γερακίνα θα σε βγάλω
και γυναίκα θα σε πάρω
ντρουμπου...

Andreas 03:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! Let's see if I can translate this correctly:

Yerakina moved to fetch cold water...her bracelets thundered.
She fell in the well, and out came her big voice.
And everyone came running, and I came running (doing something ... καημένος=?)
Threw down a golden rope, and hitched it to her belt.
Yerakina, I'll pull you out, and take you for my wife.

vocab: πέφτω=fall, πιάνω=hitched?

--Bcrowell 06:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Yerakina moved to fetch cold water...her bracelets thunder (present).
She fell into the well, and she shouted with a big voice. (lit. brought a big voice out of her mouth
And everyone came running, and I came running, too, poor me
Threw down a golden rope, and grabbed her by her belt.
Yerakina, I'll pull you out, and take you for my wife.

vocab: πέφτω=fall, πιάνω=grab, καημός=sorrow, καημένος=poor me, poor you, etc. In medieval Greek, καημένος meant burnt, the modern word for burnt is καμένος from καίω, burn βγάζω=take out, the opposite of βάζω Also used in a general sense: Έλα, καημένε = come on, fellow. και = and, too Θέλω κι εγώ ένα γλυκό = I want a sweet, too κι έτρεξα κι εγώ καημένος: The first "και" means "and" and the second means "too"

midi files:

http://users.hol.gr/~ananast1/midi/page4.html

http://www.greeksongs.gr/midis.htm

rhythm:

http://portal.kithara.gr/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=144

info:

http://www.naserron.gr/gr/paradosi/p4.html

--Bcrowell 17:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Listen to the second verse: [1]

[edit] Τα κλεφτόπουλα

The song that exists in the link "oi vounisioi" is NOT called "oi vounisioi" but it is actually a very well known Greek folk song called "τα κλεφτόπουλα" (ta kleftopoula). Below it's how the kid is singing it in the audio file (although I've found it elsewhere slightly different)

Μάνα μου τα, μάνα μου τα κλεφτόπουλα (2)

τρώνε και τραγουδάνε, άιντε πίνουν και γλεντάνε (2)

Μα ένα μικρό, μα ένα μικρό κλεφτόπουλο

δεν τρώει, δεν τραγουδάει, βάι δεν πίνει, δεν γλεντάει (2)

Μόν' τ' άρμαντα, μόν' τ' άρμαντά του κοίταζε

Του ντουφεκιού του λέει: «Γεια σου Κίτσο μου λεβέντη!» (2)

Ντουφέκι μου, ντουφέκι μου περήφανο

σπαθί ξεγυμνωμένο, μια χαρά είσαι το καημένο (2)

Πολλές φορές, πολλές φορές με γλύτωσες

απ' του εχθρού τα χέρια με κυνήγαν νύχτα μέρα (2)

(note, the actual verse is "απ' του εχθρού τα χέρια κι απ' των Τούρκων τα μαχαίρια" but I guess this is a politically correct rendition)

Και τώρα με, και τώρα με λησμόνησες

σαν καλαμιά στον κάμπο. Δεν μου λέεις τι να κάνω (2)

--83.146.62.97 15:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Cool! I'll start a translation. The main words I'm unclear about are κλεφτόπουλα=soldiers, guerrillas? and ντουφέκι=a kind of sword?

κλέβω = steal, κλέφτης = thief, guerrilla, κλεφτόπυλο = young guerilla

(ν)τουφέκι = long gun (rifle, musket, or shot gun)

Mama mama, the soldiers, they eat and sing, they drink and make merry.

But one little soldier, he dosn't eat, he dosn't sing, dosn't drink or make merry.

He only lookes at his weapons, and sais to his musket, "Hello Kitso, my good man!"

My musket, my proud musket, my sword unsheathed, a joy you are, little one.

Many times, many times you saved me from the hands of my enemies who sought me day and night.

And now, and now you forget me like a reed in the field. You don't tell me what to do.

Am I totally messing this up? What time period is this referring to? 1820?

1821-1827, the Greek War of Independence. Notice the change between historical present and preteritum. Andreas 04:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

--Bcrowell 20:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ο χορός της χελώνας ( Ιωάννης Πολέμης, 1862 - 1924)

Μια φορά κι έναν καιρό
έστησ’ ο λαγός χορό
και τα’αηδόνι κελαηδούσε
με φωνή μελωδική
κι ο λαγός χοροπηδούσε
κι όλοι εθαύμαζαν εκεί.

Μια χελώνα τον θωρεί
και ζηλεύει και θαρρεί
πως χορό κι εκείνη ξέρει
και φωνάζει στο λαγό
‘’έλα πιάσε με απ’το χέρι
να σ’ακολουθώ κι εγώ’’.

Ο λαγός καιρό δε χάνει
απ’το χέρι τηνε πιάνει
και χορεύοντας πηγαίνει
και τη σέρνει και γελά
μα η χελώνα φορτωμένη
πέφτει και κατρακυλά

Ι learned this from my Greek nanny when I was a child.

Here is his biography and more poems (put your browser to Greek (Windows)): http://androspoets.homestead.com/PolemisIoannis.html

Notice that in modern Greek rime, the whole last syllable coincides. Andreas 15:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

[edit] Learning from the Book

• Well done for creating the book. But unfortunately it is difficult to learn from. I would prefer you to make the lessons shorter. I feel like I have been on lesson one for a week and lesson two gives me quite a mental block. Especially when you show me a vocabulary list as long as the one showing more first conjugation verbs. Long vocab lists are demoralising. I have to resolve to learn the words in threes or fours over quite a period.

• Secondly, I would prefer you to introduced the whole declension at once. I feel like I'm learning it twice when it is split. But this may be because I've studied Latin.

• Is it possible to structure the book in a way that allows the student to pick up useful phrases and sentences. The dog bites the man, is an amusing sentence but not entirely useful. Further on in the book is more useful. But I think it would be better to learn how to say hello, how are you? I'm pleased to meet you formally and less formally.

• Finally a question. Is there a subjunctive mood? I ask this because to me Θέλω να γράφω looks merely like two indicatives separated by να.

Once again thanks for the good work.--IKnowNothing 12:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi -- The idea of breaking the lessons up into shorter ones seems reasonable to me. I disagree that it's a good idea to learn all the cases at once; this is likely to be way too intimidating for English speakers who have never learned a language with a case system before. Although you have a background in Latin, most people don't, and you also have to remember that since Greek uses articles, the number of inflections to be memorized is roughly tripled compared to Latin, e.g., they not only have to learn the -ας in πατερας, they also have to learn that the articles to be used with this form are ο and ενας. Regarding the length of the vocabulary lists, I think breaking up the lessons into smaller ones will probably allow them to be broken up into shorter ones; but in any case please do be careful not to delete words from the lists without checking whether they're there because they're used later on in readings, dialog, or grammatical examples. In any case, people who really want to use a language need a lot of vocabulary; it doesn't do you any good to know how to conjugate a verb in many different tenses if you don't know the verb in the first place.

BTW, I'm going to remove the note that says "Note: There is also another wikibook on Modern Greek (see Contents) that is in the process of being merged with this book." I had already merged the content from that one long before the note was added.--Bcrowell 18:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey I have done a start at restructuring that can be found Modern_Greek/Restructuring. The preliminary work is just an attempt to split up the existing lessons into smaller pieces. The content has not been fundamentally changed. I need comments on my suggested order of the chapters. So that the restructuring actually creates an improvement rather than just a re-presentation.--IKnowNothing 20:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Breaking the lessons up into smaller ones isn't a problem for me, although I don't think it would be an improvement. I really don't think it's a good idea to do all the declensions at once, though.--Bcrowell 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Introducing all the declensions and groups at once would be silly. Look at [2] for instance. There are several groups for each gender. But I suspect you mean all of the genders and cases at once.

To do with grouping all the cases together. I do not think that learning eight words at a time is a stretch. You have to learn six at a time to learn a conjugation. Introducing all of them at once has its merits. One of these is being able to explain how all the case relate to English in one go. But this strength can also be seen as a weakness. The explanation lesson becomes more daunting. Declensions are normally tabulated and represented together. But this merely allows for easy comparison. When the other groups for the declension are introduced, all of the cases will be brought in together. So is it necessary to split them up at the beginning?

Would you prefer it if articles and nouns were presented separately? It would make it much lighter. I'm happy to do this as it will make the chapter more focussed and less confusing.--IKnowNothing 00:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I should have referred to introducing all the cases and genders at once.

Would you prefer it if articles and nouns were presented separately? It would make it much lighter. I don't think that would work. You'd hardly be able to form a sentence.

I do not think that learning eight words at a time is a stretch. It's actually more like 24 words at once, since for the very first declension you learn, you'd have to learn 8 noun forms, 8 definite articles, and 8 indefinite articles. And then you still wouldn't be able to say much, because you'd only be able to use nouns from that declension. On the other hand, you can say a heck of a lot without using the vocative and genitive cases.

When the other groups for the declension are introduced, all of the cases will be brought in together. So is it necessary to split them up at the beginning? It's perfectly natural that you learn one thing at a time, and make running summaries as you go along. People can't learn everything at once. This isn't supposed to be a reference work, it's supposed to be a practical book that people could actually learn the language from. --Bcrowell 00:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough but the appendix needs to have all of that information. But I think this books is meant to be more than just a phrase book after all. A phrase book does not necessarily even have to use the greek alphabet. A list of phrases is available at Wikipedia at [3] or [4]. If it is meant to be practical then that is another reason that some the content needs to ne improved.--IKnowNothing 13:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not supposed to be a reference book or a phrase book. It's supposed to be a textbook. Fair enough but the appendix needs to have all of that information. The book already does present running summaries. For instance, lesson 2 presents the nominative and accusative. Lesson 3 presents the genitive, and gives a summary of all three cases learned so far. Lesson 4 presents the fourth and final case, the vocative, and gives a summary of all four cases.--Bcrowell 22:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring

I simply do not like the structure of the book. It is confusing and demoralising. So this is what I am going to do.

• Make the lessons shorter
• Put all the cases together. I think it is easier learn that way.
• Create a lesson plan.
• Approximately one concept per lesson.
• The restructuring will fall on different pages for the time being. This is because the old lessons are the basis for the new ones.

IKnowNothing doesn't seem to have done any more on the reorganization, and hasn't responded here to my comments on his plan. (Sorry if I'm assuming the wrong sex.) I've posted on his talk page to ask what his plans are.--Bcrowell 20:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lesson Plan

• Alphabet, Reading and Pronounciation
• Genders of nouns and cases
• Pronouns
• Basic verbs and First Conjugation
• Dialog
• Numbers and Time
• Days of the week
• Buying Something
• The subjunctive and the Aorist and Progressive
• Second Conjugation
• Transportation
• And so on...

[edit] Άσε

I can find nowhere the meaning of the (quite common) word Άσε. It's clearly an imperative form. Can anyone give me its meaning? JorisvS

The word άσε is the short spoken form of the word άφησε. It is the 2nd singular person imperative of the verb αφήνω, to let. Common uses of this word are in phrases like: άσε με (let me), άσε το, merged usually into άσ' το (let it)

Similar example: κάθισε → κάτσε (sit) Christos 16:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that already seemed the most probable meaning from what I had seen. Now I'm sure of it.
Are there many of these short imperatives? There are only 12 in my book: σκέψου το, ντύσου, μη ντυθείς, σήκω/σηκώσου, κοιμήσου, θυμήσου, στάσου, συλλογίσου, πλύσου, βιάσου, φαντάσου and πετάξου. Can you state others?
And while we're at it: are there other short forms like θες and ξες (short for θέλεις and ξέρεις)?
JorisvS

You set a very interesting topic. These short imperatives are neither active nor passive, but middle. These verbs follow the passive voice rules, while having also a middle voice imperative form. This imperative has the meaning of "let something done to yourself by yourself", while some of them cannot be done to yourself by someone else than yourself. Here are some more examples: κουρέψου, ξυρίσου, χτενίσου, βάψου, ξύσου, ετοιμάσου, στήσου, κοιτάξου, ασφαλίσου, ονειρέψου, εξηγήσου, αρνήσου, ρίξου, κρατήσου, αναπαύσου, συγκεντρώσου, περιποιήσου, κρεμάσου, χάσου

I can't guess right now if there are so many short forms of active verbs like θες (ξες is very rare, almost obsolete). The most often are: πηγαίνεις → πας, λέγεις → λες Christos 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I just remembered a Greek saying: «ή μικρός-μικρός παντρέψου ή μικρός καλογερέψου» Christos 00:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] moving reorganization here

It's been a while now, and IKnowNothing hasn't posted in response to my discussion or my message on his talk page. I'm getting the impression that he got enthusiastic about reorganizing the book, worked on it for a day, and then didn't follow through. I'm moving the table of contents of the reorganized version here. If nothing further happens with the reorganization, then these pages should all eventually be marked for deletion.--Bcrowell 15:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lesson 1: Alphabet, Reading and Pronunciation
• Lesson 2: Gender of nouns and cases
• Lesson 3: Pronouns
• Lesson 4: Basic Verbs and the First Conjugation
• Lesson 5: Dialog
• Lesson 6: Numbers and Time
• Lesson 7: Days of the week
• Lesson 8: Buying Something
• Lesson 9: The Subjunctive, the Aorist and Progressive
• Lesson 10: The Second Conjugation
• Lesson 11: Transportation

I have created a page specifically for this purpose and it is available at Modern_Greek/Restructuring.--IKnowNothing 20:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I also believe that a restructuring is necessary, though I think that the way the lessons look right now, they still do not meet the criticism of introducing useful words and phrases. Also the plan for lesson 9 makes it look like it will introduce lots of grammar at once again. Maybe this article on a learner-friendly course format will be helpful: Bite-sized language lessons . There is also a Wikibook on creating language courses, which gives some basic didactic hints.

My level of Modern Greek is just basic, but I have experience teaching languages, developing curricula and lessons and learning languages myself. I'd be glad to help with the development of Greek lessons if they will be in a better format.

Junesun 13:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Junesun -- It seems like, in a way, you, Iknownothing, and I are on the same base. We all want to avoid introducing too much grammar all at once. This is why I strongly object to the idea of, e.g., introducing all four cases at the same time. I have no objection to breaking up the lessons into smaller ones; but in order to do that, it would be necessary to write a lot of new dialogs and readings, to give the reader something to sink his teeth into at the end of each lesson. With nothing to practice on, a short lesson isn't any easier to digest. Here we seem to be running into the problem of needing someone who's a fluent Greek speaker, which you, Inknownothing, and I are not. We would need a fluent speaker who can write some good dialogs and select or write some good simple readings. One problem I've been running into as I search for sources of exercises and things to read on the web is that when I look for texts on the web, almost everything that's public domain is ancient Greek, and almost everything that's modern Greek is post-1923, so it's not public domain. My family and I are going to Greece next week, and maybe while I'm there I'll be able to find collect some materials that are public domain, e.g., children's books from before 1923 that could be reworked into dhimotiki.--Bcrowell 22:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi to everyone! I am a native Greek speaker and I would like to contribute to this wikibook. I could help with a possible reorganization, in creating new dialogs, correcting errors, etc. I've set this discussion page in my watchlist.--Christos 16:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New reorganised lesson plan proposal (bite-sized)

Ok, if you two are in, here's the beginning of a lesson plan that could work and would be very easy to digest for learners:

At the beginning: propadeutic lessons on reading Greek letters, introducing a maximum of 3 letters at a time and relying mostly on recognisable words (see [5] for example) and, when that isn't enough, common Greek vocabulary / phrases.

1. Greetings and "How are you?" conversation. Grammar: είμαι, είσαι and/or είστε; forming questions: yes/no questions and question-word (πως) questions.
2. Introducing yourself: name, nationality, profession... Grammar: the definite article (Nominative only). -ος and -α or -η (not both, to avoid confusion), possibly also -ο, as endings of names, nouns and adjectives.
3. Introducing others / talking about others' situation. Maybe add sentence structure like "Είμαι απο την..." or "Είναι στο ...". the word μου to allow for a more interesting conversation. Grammar: the remaining forms of είμαι. δεν if it hasn't been introduced so far. Plural Nominative of adjectives if unavoidable.
4. Talking about your hobbies or the languages you can speak. Grammar: a maximum of 3 forms of regular present tense, 1st or 2nd conjugation regular active, no Aorist.
5. Talking about the weather. Grammar: the rest of regular present tense
6. Asking for the way. Grammar: υπαρχει, indefinite articles
7. In a cafe. Grammar: Accusative singular, maybe low numbers
8. Shopping for fruit or the like. Grammar: Accusative plural, numbers
9. Asking for / Telling the time. Grammar: numbers to 12 or 30.
10. Regular activities. Days of the week, more about the time, κάθε
11. A day in the life of ... . Grammar: regular reflexive / "mediopassive" verbs
12. Asking somebody out. Grammar: Aorist
13. Writing a post card or a letter home. Grammar: past tense.

This is not 100% definite yet, the order may have to be changed or new lessons inserted if there is too much of a jump in vocabulary / grammar from one lesson to the next. Particularly the later lessons are more of a rough estimate of how to use an aspect of grammar in a practical situation than. However, the content of the first few lessons is fairly confirmed and the others can only be confirmed once the previous ones have been written. Junesun 11:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you think of this? Comments? Suggestions for improvement? If it's ok, Christos could already write some of the dialogues and I'll write vocabulary, grammar explanations etc. based on that. Junesun 09:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the steps are quite good and have a touristic approach. Someone who wants just to learn some phrases for his days in Greece could use the first steps and if he is more interested he might continue with the next ones. About the first propadeutic lessons should we use IPA or sound files? Christos 12:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that a touristic approach can't be wrong for Greek because the vast majority of students in my Greek class are learning Greek because they regularly go to Greece on holidays. Just two are learning Greek because they have Greek boyfriends and one is learning Greek with the explicit goal of acquiring fluency and reading Greek literature. So while people will probably become fascinated with Greek culture once they know some Greek, tourism is the initial motivation and that's why the first lessons target this audience - with the goal of convincing them that Greek is a beautiful language worth continuing learning even when they know enough Greek to get by as a tourist.

Regarding the propadeutic lessons, I created a plan at Modern Greek/Writing lessons plan, where I'm currently thinking about the order in which letters should be introduced in order to enable the student to read lots of familiar words as soon as possible - that being a sign of success for him. I'm also trying to think of words to use for this purpose. Input is very welcome.

As for IPA vs. sound files I believe sound files are very important if the student is to acquire a native-like accent. IPA can be very helpful in describing sounds, but it is not very well-known outside universities. So I'd like a three-part description of every sound:

1. English equivalent. French, Spanish or German equivalent (-> commonly studied second languages) if there is no English equivalent.
2. IPA symbol, for those who know IPA.
3. At least one example sound file for each sound. Ideally all words would be linked to sound files: the more examples to imitate, the better. Are there any Greek sound files available through Wikicommons? If not, we'll need to find someone to make new recordings.

Thank you so much for your help!

Junesun 09:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Junesun and Christos,

Thanks, Junesun, for e-mailing to let me know about this discussion. I'm actually in Greece right now, and logging in frmo an internet cafe on Santorini. I think the combination of an English speaker with language teaching experience and a native Greek speaker sounds very powerful, and you two should be encouraged to take the ball and run with it. Let me know if there's anything you'd like me to get here in Greece for use in lessons, e.g., business cards that could be scanned, photos of signs, etc.

I don't think it's necessary to go quite that slow with learning the alphabet. Many of the letters are exactly the same as in English, so the beginner starts off already knownig quite a few letters. Many are also fairly easy to learn because of the similar shapes, e.g., lowercase gamma looks a lot like a lowercase g. I've only spent a few minutes every day familiarizing my kids with the alphabet. My six-year-old can read easy words now, and my nine-year-old can sound out anything, given a little time.

It sounds like you want to add quite a bit of easy material onto the front, which is fine, but I hope the more difficult material won't go away, but just be shifted to later on. Please also keep in mind that many words are introduced early on so that when the student comes to some of the later readings, they'll know the words (or at least they'll ring a bell rather than benig totally unfamiliar). One thing I think we're erally missing is exercises. Here are some ideas for some exercises that have come to mind in the last couple of days:

1. given a cue like "1 kafe," produce "enan kafe," and similarly for the other numbers that change form
2. given a verb form in the imperfect, say, "ε'χανα," produce the corresponding aorist form "ε'χασα," and vice versa

I just had to make a phone call, and it occurred to me that it would help to have some information on how to speak on the phone, like the use of words such as εμπρο'ς. Another useful topic for later would be how to phrase requests politely, e.g., me sigxoreite kurie, mhpos xerete pou einai o stathmos leoforiou;, or tha hthela na xrisimopiousa to thlefono, parakalo.

I would also like to suggest retaining the current use of the terms "subject" and "object," rather than nominative and accusative. Since modern Greek has almost completely lost the dative, there's really very little point IMO in introducing grammatical terms that will be unfamiliar to most English speakers.--Bcrowell 10:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Bcrowell. As I understood you did quite a lot of work on the Greek lessons already and of course that won't be lost. I'm just thinking of a way to get more complete beginners to stick with the lessons. Learning a foreign language in self-study is challenging even for people who already know a few foreign languages, mainly because it's easy to lose motivation. For somebody who has little experience learning languages, such as the average English speaker, it's even worse. So I'm looking for a painless way to start learning Greek that will be easy enough not to discourage anybody, with everything introduced slowly, few grammar terms and lots of opportunities for practise. You made a very good point about the use of the terms "subject" and "object" rather than Nominative and Accusative. I have studied Latin, so grammar terms like that are no problem for me, but I also know that for a lot of people already these words are enough to send them running, particularly if they had bad experiences learning German or Latin. Ideally they will be conversational in Greek before they even become aware that Greek grammar is rather complex.

The lack of exercises is also a good point. The more exercises, the better, for people who don't grasp concepts quickly or who need to see themselves scoring 100% in order to believe that they have understood things correctly. Unlike in class, a lot of exercises in this course will not cause better students to be bored, since they can just skip the exercises and move on to the next lesson as soon as they feel ready. I would like to see a broad array of exercise types. I will probably create crosswords for the vocabulary for example. Also, being able to express yourself in Greek is more motivating than knowing a part of grammar, so instead of just asking people form "enan kafe" etc. I'd invent a situation where they have to do that: "Imagine you are at a Greek café with your friends and you're the only one who can speak Greek, so you have been elected to order for all of them. Here's what they want: 1 kafe, 1 ouzo, ... Make the order."

Of course practical vocabulary like εμπρώς will be introduced and I do plan to introduce all important words eventually, just not so many at a time. Long lists of vocabulary are scary, particularly if they aren't used practically anywhere. Students who really like learning lots of vocabulary very early can always use the "Optional vocabulary" section for that.

As for learning the alphabet I changed the Writing lesson plan so that letters that are almost identical to English letters are introduced all at once at the beginning and the rest of the letters are introduced one at a time following that. This works much better. You're right that the Greek alphabet is relatively easy to learn because of these letters, but if you're confronted with e. g. ψ, ζ, ξ ω etc. all at the same time you will still not learn them easily. With plenty of opportunities to practise after every letter, learning them goes so much more smoothly. I can read the Greek, Arabic and Korean alphabets (and a few hundred Chinese characters, but these are a different story) and I know that it's possible to learn them in one day of dedicated study with a divide-and-conquer method like this, whereas if you're given a full list of letters it takes much longer until you can recognise them all - and it's less fun, too.

Taking a couple of pictures to use in the lessons is really a good idea. I'm thinking along the lines of: simple signs like "Athens 4 km" for practising to read, a person's card (to be edited) for a lesson on introductions, a plan of arriving trains or flights for a lesson on time, a TV program for the same purpose, price signs of a grocery store for a lesson on shopping, pictures e. g. of a café or a hospital or a famous sight or the like as situational images for other lessons (not that important).

Thank you for your help!

Junesun 14:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: Even if you don't have the time to contribute a lot to the new lessons, I'd greatly appreciate you checking them to spot mistakes and the like. English isn't my native language and I have studied Greek for less than 2 years, so I do make mistakes.

Bcrowell, have you been able to take pictures in Greece? How do you like the writing lessons now? Any new ideas on the actual lessons? Junesun 17:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breathing marks

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask about the language itsef, but I was learning from this book (it's very comprehensive, congratulations!) and noticed that there are no breathing marks in the vocabulary. Does Modern Greek not use them like Ancient Greek? Is there a way to show an 'h' sound in Modern Greek? Thanks in advance, Storeye (talk) 03:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No, there are no breathing marks in modern Greek.--76.93.42.50 (talk) 15:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image Warning

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-- CommonsTicker (talk) 14:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] merging

It's been a couple of years now, and nobody seems to have followed through on the proposed new version. All that exists is six one-page lessons on the alphabet. I'm going to merge the two versions together.--Bcrowell (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you see alphabet lessons mixed in with the actual course in any other Wikibook? They are separate from the proposed new A1-level curriculum and can be used with any course.

Hi -- I'm not clear on what you mean here. Could you explain more? I was referring to the fact that user IKnowNothing proposed at one time to rewrite the whole course, but never accomplished much, and left the book for two years in a muddled state, with a small amount of new material labeled "new course," while the main body of the book was labeled "original course."--Bcrowell (talk) 05:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that the alphabet lessons should not be confused with the language lessons. The language lessons need to be re-done because they are too difficult, but the alphabet lessons are stand-alone and can be used with any course, just like the script lessons in the Korean or Arabic Wikibook. No other Wikibook tries to merge script lessons into language lessons. Btw the latest re-write effort was initiated by me (see the discussion point "New reorganised lesson plan proposal" on this very page). The reason we don't have a good course yet is that the other contributors, who said they would help, disappeared and I can't do it all alone. However, IKnowNothing came back to this project a few weeks ago and created the first two lessons according to the plan, and I was hoping that this re-writing project might finally go somewhere. Junesun (talk)

All I can say to this is: what a disaster. If you didn't notice. I wrote the two lessons that you've plonked in the middle of the book this year. The course you've created by merging them is useless. It is incoherent and directionless. You can't just merge without consulting. The book has to be structured and aimed at a purpose. The new book, which was slowly being written would've been useful. It would've allowed some to reach A1 proficiency. You must see that a language course without direction is not useful. How can someone talk about more complicated things without first being able to greet someone, introduce themself and so on. Language levels are targeted at allowing someone to function in that particular language environment. If someone has A1 proficiency they are able to at least be able to fill in a mini form to get a hotel room. The levels after this build on this proficiency. The internet is a good place to learn anything. But if there is one thing it lacks it is structure. Have you ever trying to level a language by yourself with no book and limited often mismatch material from the internet? It can often feel like you're going nowhere. This is because it is difficult to know what is important and what you need to learn next. This is something that a good book can offer.--IKnowNothing (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Bcrowell, please undo the merge. As a major goal of this re-write effort is to make the lessons more structured and standards-compliant, we can't develop better structure while everything is meshed together. We will be sure to include the material from your initial course at the appropriate times. User IKnowNothing and I would like to focus on the A1 proficiency level first though and flesh out the lessons described in the lesson plan. We will both continue to work on this, hoping for Christos to continue to correct any mistakes, and you should feel free to join in as well. I don't think that any other Wikibook has a group of four currently active contributors, we're in a unique position and should take advantage of that to make the Modern Greek Wikibook an exemplary Wikibook in language-teaching. Junesun (talk) 06:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Bcrowell, I suppose we're in a stand off on a some sort of philosophical point. But now I don't really have a place to put the two new lessons that I've written for the 'A1' course, in my opinion. When I began writing the lessons, the book had been rearranged to its current form. So I thought it best to write them in word until it was in some sort of form where they would have a place. But unfortunately, nothing has changed and I find that there is no place for the lessons to fall. Would you be kind enough to give us an indication as to whether you would consider changing the book back. I apologise for my tone in my previous comments here, I was just frustrated because I felt that the approach that we were taking was the correct way to proceed with the development of this book and that it was progressing slowly. --IKnowNothing (talk) 09:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like an admin just reverted this, for what reason I don't know. Thanks Adrignola! IknowNothing, are you still around? Would you contribute to the A1 course? Junesun (talk) 15:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)