Talk:Main Page/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Please do not edit the contents of this page.
If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current discussion page


This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 2004 and January 2005.

Contents

Main page appearance

Remove of book listings on the front page?

  • Just too many books to list here
  • When you click on a topic, the list of books under that topic are most likely different then the books on the front page (either the author adds it to the topic listing or directly to the front page).

Lets just simplify it and put all the books on topic pages and have one or two books per day/per topic as "books of the day" for the front page--RobKohr 17:17, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Book of the month

I would like to suggest a "book of the month", similar to how it is working in the German version of Wikibooks, because it seems to work quite well there: Every month all registered Wikibook users can vote from a couple of nominated books for beeing next month's "book of the month". I guess Wikibooks is maturing to allow for 12 excellent books to be displayed on the main page a year (similar to Wikipedia's "Featured article"). --Andreas Ipp 18:39, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would like to reserve at least a quarter of the main page for the Book of the month, to increase the value of this award. In the future this should preferably be a well-selected picture with some introductory text to the "book of the month". In the last week of January, I would like to increase the interest in the vote by placing a picture of a big question mark "?" with the last call for voting. I will try to set something up during the next couple of days on my user subpages, and present it here first. If somebody could create a really cool kind of questionmark (maybe floating above a book, ...) that would be great! Otherwise, I would probably only contribute a very simple question mark. Also if you have other suggestions for this, let me know. (PS: Googling around, one can find a few very nice question marks, but I'm not sure whether I can just upload them to the commons?) --Andreas Ipp 08:15, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here is my suggestion for the change of the main page: User:Andreas_Ipp/Main_Page_suggestion. If you have administrator right, all you have to do is put these three lines
===Book of the month===
{{Book of the month}}
<br style="clear:both;" /> <!-- so that next header starts below picture -->
before this line.
===About Wikibooks===
(The main page has been locked just a week ago by User:Gentgeen, and I don't have administrator rights). Thank you very much! --Andreas Ipp 12:57, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I just found out that the main page was not locked anymore, and I made the change by myself. :-) --Andreas Ipp 13:17, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Change Featured Wikibooks to Most Active Wikibooks

  • Since the book of the month (see above) would take the role of the "Featured Wikibooks", I would suggest to rename Featured Wikibooks to "Most Active Wikibooks" - and list the, say, Top 5 of currently active Wikibooks (that means highest number of contributors in the last month (can be checked e.g. by "Related changes" or by a still to be defined SQL query).
  • "New Wikibooks" is fine, as books get rotated through, but..
  • "Struggling Wikibooks" is quite undefined. It is not clear who can add books to this category and who will take them away again. Either it should be also organized in a kind of rotating manner (add books with a date and delete the first in list), or by some kind of voting system.
  • "Wikijunior" is just promotional, but to be fair it should contain a link to the Wikijunior background, stating that it is a project started by the Beck Foundation approaching the Wikimedia Foundation. --Andreas Ipp 19:17, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I replaced Featured and Struggling Wikibooks by Wikibooks:Top active. --Andreas 20:24, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Here the last featured and struggling books:

Featured Wikibooks Wikibooks:Featured books Featured article star.svg

Struggling Wikibooks

Connexion

Imitating the new page on Wikipedia

If someone has the time to dedicate this main English page could look a lot better if it imitated the clean, colored, outlined-box format of the Wikipedia main page. Man this page does not look so nice to me in terms of the three pasty colored boxes (even though I helped design it) and the Wikipedia page looks very nice. We should of course keep the pretty icons .. --Karl Wick

I went ahead and did my best shot of redesigning the main page in the shadow of the 'Pedia. --Karl Wick
I don't like it. I have to scroll down loads to get to the books I want. The blank space on the right looks bad. I would revert, but it is the main page of course, so I would like more opinions. It doesn't matter much to me, actually, because I just type "LD" or "HSE" into the top-left box and use the Go button. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 12:21, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I like it a bit - I agree there are problems , but I think they can be overcome. We have too many books to list them all on the first page now. I think we should list categories only. Languages in particular are a huge list. We could also have the book column wider than the community one. That should solve the problem of blank space on the LHS. I think it's a good idea to have our front page similar to wikipedia's. It lets users know visually that we are a sister project. It's branding. Theresa knott 14:19, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My last edit should improve things a bit, making the book names flow accross the lines instead of having a line break after each one. Maybe we should get rid of the red dots too, using the top box to showcase the more completed books. --Karl Wick
What do y'all think ? Looking better ?
Should we include the little red (and yellow) dots again that indicate levels of completion ? --Karl Wick
I liked them. They made it easy to check at a glance if a book was ready to read for reading's sake, or more under construction. When a user goes to a book, they shouldn't expect it to be mostly done if it's just beginning. --Spikey 01:42, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Finally, the Main (English) page looks nice because the rightmost side of the right column isn't cut off like it used to be sometimes in the past. H Padleckas 15:52, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for that comment. It still is cut off, just not so blatantly. But also notice that this discussion is from February. - SamE 21:18, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cologne Blue Skin

It looks like the Style Sheet for the Wikibooks has a little problem... On the Cologne Blue style underneath the logo pic, it still says "The Free Encyclopedia", instead of the (i think proper) "The free textbook project". btw, this problem is the same with the other wikimedia pages as well --Mobius 08:44, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Centered change

I don't like it, I think it looks very ugly (sorry) - however, Karl still hasn't reverted it, meaning that at least he prefers it that way. Opinions? r3m0t (cont) (talk) 21:48, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I changed it so it now has a buffer zone of 23% on the left, and 25% on the right. I think it looks better, but I'm not sure about how large the buffers on each side should be, as screen sizes differ from user to user. --flonejek 06:59, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Logo design

It would be an improvement to see the slogan read "Think freely. Learn freely" rather than "Think free. Learn free" under the Wikibooks logo; someone coming here to learn something might be slightly put off by a source of knowledge which doesn't know the difference between an adjective and an adverb. Paul Clenton

I am thinking about modifying the logo to mimic the more elegant Wikipedia logo (as the designer of the current logo I feel confident in saying this). I am thinking of a smooth, gray version of the current. What kind of images could we put on the front of the top book that suggest learning / education / academia / textbooks ? eyeglasses, a feather in an inkwell, bust of Wm Shakespeare, human skeleton, strand of DNA, a sailing ship, a compass, a lightning bolt, a human brain, a radioactive physics-type symbol (as now), etc etc. Help me figure out what makes sense here. --Karl Wick

I don't like the sailing ship or lightning bolt. Apart from that any of the images you have in mind would be great. My ideas include Rodin's "the thinker". A bust of any of the classical philosphers, a mortarboard, A scroll or something that looks like a diplomer. You could also put words along the spines of the books. It would have to be simple. Something like "Quantum electrodynamics for dummies" would be amusing but impractical. Something like maths, poetry, french, science on each of the spines would indicate the range of different subjects on offer. That's all I can think of at the moment. Theresa knott 09:23, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I like the logo the way it is... I don't think it needs changing - it's simple and elegant and a little more interesting than it would be in plain grey. KJ 02:27, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Besides the logo in the upper-left corner of each page, could we update the "favicon.ico" ? ( http://visual.wiki.taoriver.net/moin.cgi/FavIcon ) ? At the moment the Wikipedia "favicon.ico" is identical to the Wikibooks "favicon.ico".
I second the call for a new favicon. All that's needed is shrinking down the present logo. A unigue favicon would help people differentiate between Wikipedia and Wikibooks bookmarks in the Favorite Places or Shortcut Bar. -- Everlong

Good job Karl. I like Theresas idea of 'The Thinker' and would like to see a simputer or PDA in there. Books have had it (well maybe in a few hundred years time . . .) I would suggest a pile of books with an 'explosive' Light - all the knowledge symbols coming out with a childs face behind as if reading a screen (perhaps wearing a mortar board) This is similar to the world jigsaw created in the wikipdea logo 82.69.58.117 10:41, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikibook arrangement

I don't know if anyone else feels the same but I think the arrangement of wikibooks by developmental stages to be uneasy to the eyes. Also, when a wikibook progresses to the next stage, it is moved further up the listing which just adds to more unpleasantness. I think a fixed alphabetical arrangement would be best since the stage icon next to the wikibook link shows what stage it's at anyway. So when a wikibook progresses to the next stage, we only change the icon, no need to move the wikibook link around. Shuffling of the links is just not user friendly. I forgot what the technical term is... the principles of design... such as ease of readability, navigation, etc. What do the rest of you think? — Mkn 22:26, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I was the one who came up with that idea, and the only person that said anything was NeuronExMachina, who liked it. See below, at #Books: Arrange books by completion. Should we put it to a vote? - SamE 01:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sure. — Mkn 01:29, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Book completion

What do you think of the high ratio of stubby books to books which are even only partially written?

Key to Completion Labels

Textbooks
25%.svg - In Development 50%.svg - Being Touched Up 100%.svg - Complete Edition
The Books

Here's my idea for a key to the completion labels in the Textbooks box. I think it's easier to read than the paragraph at the top. --Spikey 04:40, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good idea, I'll implement it --flonejek 11:04, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I also changed the images, making them thinner and darker so their a bit less conspicuous and don't drown out the titles/links --flonejek 12:10, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I like the new images, but I don't like the idea of "completed" books. Can we come up with some other phrasing ? Usable perhaps ? Complete gives the impression that there is nothing left to do. Theresa knott 14:31, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's why I used "edition"; a "complete edition" means it's in a full, complete form, but can still be updated and made better. It has attained 1.0-ness. If you think it's too strong though, perhaps "full" or somehting like it. I don't like "being finalized" for this reason; a "complete edition" shouldn't be a "final edition". "Being touched up" wasn't very professional, though. Anyone have a better term? --Spikey 11:05, 1 Mar 2004

What about

"completed initial draft"
"Ready to use"
"All topics covered"
"A beta version"
"Ready for testing"

Do you like any of these. As for being touched up. It may not sound professional, but it's very clear what is meant. I say keep it. Theresa knott 17:15, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about it again, "Being touched up" sounds like it's approaching finalization too. I like "completed initial draft" and "All topics covered" for the final phase, though. Maybe we need to look into what we mean by "File:Yellow.png". --Spikey 21:45, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps instead of just blobs of colour you have a red D image for in development; an orange F for being finalised and a green C for complete?
Deuteranope simulation of our Main Page. According to some people in my class who are deuteranope, the simulation and the original version look identical in most cases (for most websites - the only one which was a little different was the bright red Yahoo logo). This seems pretty accurate. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 21:44, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I agree-even if you aren't deuteranope, the blobs can be kind of hard to see. Kagredon 01:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I tried adding a header but i can't get it too look right, could somebody either fix it or revert it? Also about the letter/images, I'm trying too keep the images as small as possible kinda inconspicuos, because I looked at the old version and I think the drowning out of the text was what ended the previous development status system. Some random guy also made the names better, thanks whoever you are :) --flonejek 23:48, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I pulled the header into the table; think it looks pretty good. I'd use a better phrase than "Development Scheme", though. If I could come up with one. I also think that "Intermittent" is a very odd choice for yellow. As I said above, I think we need to better define what yellow means. --Spikey 01:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I added a section on the right for better development stages descriptions, and made the names better (i think). Hope you like it. --flonejek 09:33, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've replaced "guru" with "comprehensive" as it seems be more reflective of the actual status of development ("guru" in this sense conveys a notion of omniscience, which is not the aim of any single Wikibook). In addition, the portion of text that indicates the completeness of various other Wikimedia projects has been omitted as the scheme is too subjective to be applied towards entire databases. --Taoster 18:13, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Completion label feedback

I like the color-blind-friendly blobs ! --Karl Wick

Yes, the little squares are much better—easier it see. But how does Errata rate anything but the first level. There is almost no text there? - Marsh 18:30, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just a prod at the descriptions - if you were to look at most red books, they have the structure but not the content. The lucid dreaming wikibook really is approaching completion and its structure has barely changed at all since the first few edits*. HSE, among other yellow or red books, also has structure as well as content. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 22:58, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
* I understand that lucid dreaming is a bit of an anomaly because it doesn't have much content (and won't even after all the reality check pages are finished)

The descriptions are subject to interpretation.. Perhaps a better system is "testing" a wikibook. Level 1 - Outline of the book; Level 2 - Most (ie. more than 50%) of all proposed pages have been drafted; Level 3 - All of the pages have been drafted and finally level 4 - all initally proposed pages written and checked. Maybe?

Also, I have updated the blobs to be have a transparent background so they look a bit nicer against the style of the Main Page

Given the nature of a wiki, the notion of "completion" labels seems fairly useless. Granted there is an initial period during which the majority of the pages are written, but even established pages can still be edited and revised. This is to say nothing of pages which may be affected by new technologies or discoveries. The page revision history readily indicates whether the page is undergoing active development, and coupled with the page itself the stage of development can be ascertained. I see no reason to append a subjective label.

Lastly, I think the inconsistent use (not all pages have labels) will be highly confusing.

--Eibwen 07:51, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. First, I tried to give all Wikibooks labels on the main page, but within Wikibooks, the labeling will vary greatly. I think all Wikibooks on the bookshelves have completion labels, and whenever someone adds a book without it, I add the label. Notice the explanation of the labels on the right side of the main page and at Template:Stages2. Note that nowhere does it say that pages shouldn't be edited and revised. Also, the labels don't say anything about how fast the book is progressing right now, but rather how much is done so far. If I wanted to learn some obscure language, and we didn't have completion labels, I would be severely disappointed to find just the introduction written. Again, if I wanted to see which foreign languages are the farthest completed, I wouldn't be able to tell as easily as with completion labels. No one wants to read a page from every language book to decide something we can decide for them. We want to make it easy for the reader - SamE 13:37, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is entirely possible to browse the wiki without reading the Main Page, and thus have no idea as to the significance of the symbols, as was the case when I first encountered them. Perhaps the symbols themselves could be linked to the explanation. Having subsequently read about the symbols, I'd suggest changing the orientation of the intermediary symbols. Two vertically stacked blocks can readily be confused with a 'B' or an '8'. I'd replace it with two horizontal blocks -- which interestingly has the effect of appearing as a staircase when taken collectively:
Horizontalified the 50% blob.--Boit 00:54, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
. .. .: ::
--Eibwen 22:07, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Time-stamped completion labels

I created some new templates that should help to provide "time-stamped" development stages. As explained in Help:Development stages, the template is easy to use ( {{stage|100%|Jan 16, 2005}} gives Development stage: 100% (as of Jan 16, 2005)(Jan 16, 2005) ) and provides a descriptive text when you place the mouse above the picture. (template {{stage short|...}} Development stage: 100% (as of Jan 16, 2005) is without the small date next to it and can be used in books). This is meant to gradually replace the old images, and the date ("time-stamp") helps to keep the stages up-to-date. --Andreas Ipp 18:27, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

About books themselves

Books: Featured Books

Botany and German have been on since Template:Featured was first made. Could we replace with HSE and something else? (Not lucid dreaming, because then it would be on two lists, and there aren't any new books to replace it on the New list...). Actually, you could just replace them with HSE, the column widths would still be fine. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 19:04, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Statistics book I am currently working on is new...very new...--Boit 16:55, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Book categorization

I would like to start an Arts & Crafts text. Would this be better placed in the Wikipedia Howto section, or is there room for such a text on Wikibooks? If so, in which category should it be placed? All the Wikibooks I have seen so far are very theoretical in nature. --23/4/2004

*pokes towards lucid dreaming, a practical guide* An arts and crafts wikibook would require a huge amount of photographs and diagrams, and is therefore a major project. If, however, you want to start one, you can start by putting in under Miscellanous. Remember to make an origami section :) r3m0t (cont) (talk) 16:57, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Theoretical in nature? Probably due to the contributors more than by plan. I think that this would be a great place for a book about arts & crafts. In fact, someone was mentioning that not too long ago but it has not gotten started up yet (to the best of my knowledge). --Karl Wick
Ouch, I think I may have made a boo-boo through my limited command of the English language, for which I apologise.
What I meant was a category that collects practical knowledge about how to apply oneself in different arts and different crafts. I wasn't talking about pottery, weaving etc. as such, although that would of course also fit into such a category. My immediate goal was to write a text about authoring web pages.--branko


Books: Arrange books by completion

I think we should arrange the books within the bookshelves in the order of completion (finished books first), and alphabetize the ones at the same level. This would keep the new books that just happen to start with 'A' out of the first slot and, conversely, bring completed and mostly completed books up to the front. It would also encourage people to update the completion of the book (maybe even get more done to look better). Lastly, it would make it easier to see from a glance which bookshelves need the most work and which books are completed. What do you guys think? - SamE 21:36, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Same thing as the templates, same thing as the black edge; if you don't like the change, please tell me right here. - SamE 15:07, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think this was a great idea! Thanks for making the change. --NeuronExMachina 03:12, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One more thing: Should there be a note somewhere on the main page describing this ordering? --NeuronExMachina 03:13, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I put a sentence at the end of Template:Stages2 that explains this. It appears on the right side of the Main Page. - SamE 04:21, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Books: What makes a Wikibook?

Alright, I've been looking around various wikibook pages and discussions and can't figure out when something should be a wikibook project and when it should be done seperatly. In particular I decided to start a wiki project to develop a universal pen-and-paper RPG engine ( http://www.invariant.org/media/ at the moment...if it takes off I will get a domain name.....yes yes I know shitty html pages puporting to have this aim pop up all the time but I want to see if doing this collaboratively with a wiki system allowing for nice layout and some good ideas can do better).

I assumed at first that wikibooks was clearly an inappropriate place to put this project but while failing to find a list of third party MediaWiki run projects I noticed that there were wikibooks like "Getting a Girl". Not that I would object to a serious scientifically sound discussion of dating strategies but this book is filled with gems like, "Ok, first, please forgive me to compare handling a girl's mind with jerking off a dog. The principle is the same. You want to get a girl feel horny / greedy for love." If this is an okay wikibook maybe my project belongs here as well. So I have two questions

First, would the project I described be best kept on my servers/account or get accepted as a wikibook. I imagine it is best kept distinct (although this makes it difficult to attract eyes.....especially since there seems to be no obvious page indexing outside MediaWiki projects) and that only projects of a more concrete nature belong on Wikibooks (like textbooks, how-to manuals). However, if Wikibook is going to allow things like this entierly unsubstantiated 'Getting a Girl' guide then why shouldn't my project take advantage of being hosted on wikibooks (BTW is there any page detailing the advantages/disadvantages with starting a whole project or being part of something like wikibooks). Logicnazi 11:45, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Since you started a wiki on your own server, you will be interested in Wiki Science.
There is a third option. Consider posting your pen-and-paper RPG ideas on some other wiki. Perhaps http://freegames.wiki.taoriver.net/ would be appropriate ? --DavidCary 16:08, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. This is one of the things I found really annoying I looked for a fair amount of time for a wiki with such a purpose but couldn't fine one. Is there any page which functions as a list of all the various wikis? Logicnazi 02:04, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ohh, freegames is for computer games and doesn't use MediaWiki. I'd still like a page listing all MediaWiki projects (if not least so people could find my project) even if freegames wouldn't be on there and isn't quite appropriate for my project (MediaWiki seems to be the only wiki engine which is visually appealing enough to have a hope of creating a succesfull pen and paper RPG.) Logicnazi 02:08, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, there is a list of all wiki. It's at http://www.worldwidewiki.net/wiki/SwitchWiki . A few people write wiki descriptions that include the wiki engine it uses. Want to help them ? --DavidCary 23:43, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also check out http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamewiki .

Books: XML(Chinese Version)

Someone put this Chinese Wikibook on the IT bookshelf. It's Chinese, so it doesn't belong here. Where does it belong, and how can we tell the user that created the page this (in Chinese, maybe)? I reverted the link, but they put it back there. - SamE 21:02, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Bookshelves

Arts bookshelf?

Should there be an Arts bookshelf? I imagine it could include handbooks on things like 3D modeling, drawing, game creation, etc. How can I make a bookshelf? - NeuronExMachina 02:42, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ok, here's a preliminary Arts bookshelf.

Bookshelf: Computer Science?

What's up with Computer Science bookshelf? Right now there's a link to it on the main page in the Science bookshelf. Should we make it a simple redirect to IT bookshelf, at least until there's enough books that it makes sense to split into 2 bookshelves ? --DavidCary 20:27, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

New Bookshelf - Travel Guides?

I am currently working on a travel guide for the Isle of Arran. I can think of no book better suited to the wikibook site, than travel guides. For a start anyone can add to them whether it be about their home region or their favourite holiday spot. Could we please add a bookshelf, or how do i add a bookshelf (sorry a bit new at this), for Travel Guides.

Pluke 20:49, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Have you already seen Wikitravel? Perhaps this might be better over there. --NeuronExMachina 08:52, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This belongs at Wikitravel, no doubt. I'll take it off the main page, but we'll need an admin to move/delete the pages. - SamE 20:06, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Cheers Guys i'll move it over, sorry about that, there are so many of these wiki things about :) - Pluke 14:09, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Error: How-Tos links to arts

On the main page, a link to the How-Tos bookshelf links to the Arts bookshelf

Sorry, I can not find this link. The two links labelled "How-Tos" link to the "How-Tos" bookshelf. --Andreas Ipp 05:12, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Layout: Black edge

Can we do away with the black edges around the selected wikibooks, bookshelves, and community sections? I tried that out with Show Preview, and it looks better. Any thoughts? - SamE 04:54, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I took the edges away for everyone to see, and adjusted the columns a bit; any comments on it are welcome. - SamE 18:56, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Main page text

Opening paragraph

Here's my idea (added text in italics):

Welcome, newcomers! Wikibooks is dedicated to developing and disseminating free, open content textbooks and other classroom texts. We currently host over X textbooks, over X of them marked Thorough/Complete Editions/Somethingelsewecomeupwith. However, every book is open to revision and addition by anyone–even you.

Needs a little work, but there's the general idea. --Spikey 23:48, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nice -I'd like to modify it a bit to We currently host over X textbooks,in various stages of development; from those needing a lot of work to those that are nearly perfect. Every book is open to revision and addition by anyone–even you. Theresa knott 12:43, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Number of users

Someone tried to add

   We currently have {{Number of users}} editors
   working on around {{Number of books}} textbooks...

which displays as

We currently have 303,028 editors working on around 2595 textbooks...

I'm not sure how {{Number of users}} is counted, but I thought it was a nice thing to stick in that opening paragraph. Then it was reverted. Then it was added again. Then reverted again. I considered adding it again, but I'd rather not get sucked into an edit war. Would you, calmly and rationally, state why this is, or is not, a good thing to stick in that paragraph ? -- DavidCary 20:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you see the Number of users? Unless this is computed value, i don't see how it could be useful. Would have to update it every time a new user gets in... BTW it's already false. Yann 22:04, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, we need to replace that silly number with a computed value. Unfortunately, I don't see one in http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Variable . Where does the "registered users" number in Special:Statistics come from ? -- DavidCary 06:28, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Converting html to wikicode

html2wikibooks(*nix/Cygwin) - I modified the html2wikipedia filter so it could be used with wikibooks. It only works with the *nixes (linux, BSD, *nix, Mac OSX) and Cygwin under windows. Its only 28KB, but I have a monthly bandwith limit of 10 megs so I would [be really grateful if someone mirrored it and updated the links. When you use it don't forget to make sure all the links in the html page are correct. I did a demo page here - original. --flonejek 06:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Standards, Style guidelines

Style: Book navigation

do we have a [book-format] consensus here? all the books are different in fmt. i advice adding a header like:

What do u guys think? --Yacht (talk)Q 03:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yacht, you are talking about page navigation links at the top of each wikibooks module, correct ? I agree on principal with what you are saying and started my Organic Chemistry book with something like you suggested, but stopped adding the navigation links after a while because I would change how the pages were linked together. My thought now is to put in navigation links later, when a book is more stable. Ideally, we will eventually have software that will do the navigation automatically for us. --Karl Wick
Since the Wikibook I'm writing (Vietnamese) is still pretty new and unstable, I've just added a simple link back to the TOC on every article page, using this code:
<small>&lt; [[Vietnamese: Contents|Contents]]</small>
It doesn't require much work or maintenance, and I can other links next to it later on easily. – Minh Nguyễn 02:40, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I use Template:LDTOC and Template:LDRCTOC in the Lucid dreaming wikibook. I "include" them with {{msg:LDTOC}} and {{msg:LDRCTOC}}. As they are they look pretty cool, however this system wouldn't work very well for more than the two levels I have now. Luckily lucid dreaming is a fairly small subject, if you exclude dream examples :) r3m0t (cont) (talk) 00:02, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've put navs in Genealogy and Game Guides and Strategy, and it easily extends to more levels - just use more colors. Should'nt there be a page about constructing navs? I'll get to work on it! KirbyMeister 21:43, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Standards: Book structure

Does anyone think that the books should follow a similar format or structure? Like the language books for instance, I like the idea of dividing them into level I, II, III sections and the title page for each book is a nice touch too. However, some of them have a bit of poor formatting. An example of a nicely formatted language book in my opinion, is the Norwegian text (I like the use of the green tables for key parts), should we think about making a common layout for these books?

Another thing that is pretty evident - the way books are set up, using the book title prefix to prevent cross-articles from other books. IE: naming pages like Electronics:Circuit Diagrams or German:Types of Good Beer etc. Maybe we should come up with a way to do this automatically within books?

I don't think our textbooks should try too hard to be similar to one another. Unlike with Wikipedia, we don't have any easy method of determining the best format for a book except by evaluating it as it's written. While it makes a text look "polished" to be so neatly broken down, it doesn't really help anyone study, and overloading the site with rules is probably only going to drag down people's drive to contribute. --Jwh 04:57, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

New main page to mimic the english wikipedia

I have started a proposed new main page to mimic the professional look of the english wikipedia. Please improve the test page as it is far from complete. Perl 02:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For this format, we would need something catchy, like Wikipedia's "In the News", "Did you Know..." and "Featured articles". We could expand on the featured and new books (with a few pictures), but they aren't as exciting as the stuff on Wikipedia. If you could find some way to present the books in an attractive way, it might work, but I personally like it the way it is. - SamE 03:49, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Language books: Curse words?

What is your stand on teaching curse words in language books?

Don't. Why should you? No usual language book does so. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 13:54, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
They are words just like any other, and not to mention Wikipedia has a large entry on the F-word...
I think you are allowed to mention curse words. Go ahead. Perl 17:38, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Plus it is a way to add some humor on the subject, as I'm not even talking about the really terrible curse words. For instance, the Polish language has a phrase, when translated, is similar to: "Your face resembles a Warsaw sidewalk". This is referring to the sidewalks which are normally caked in dog feces as owners do not usually pick up after themselves :)
Go for it IMO the fact that other language books don't do is their problem not ours. Make sure the words are in common use, and clearly mark them as curse words so that no mistakes can be made. Most people I know want to learn "hello two beers please" "Can you tell me how to get to my hotel" "I like you very much, will you go to bed with me?" and some varient of "You like to have sexual relations with your parents", "Why don't you go and masturbate yourself" or similar insults. But that probably tells you more about my friends (and myself) than how language should be taught ;-) Theresa knott 08:48, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

"Plus it is a way to add some humour on the subject": what is considered funny usually differs tremendously between cultures and even between individuals. Adding curse words is not a fail-safe way to inject humour. Having said that, I would like to say: go ahead, write as you like. If somebody disagrees, they are sure to change your text. That is, after all, the way a wiki works. :-)

Regarding the cultural aspect. We don't actually have to cater to every culture in the English books - we only have to include the English-speaking ones. Other cultures have their own languages and corresponding books, so the problem is solved for us --Jwh 05:05, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
But when learning a language, usually one would want to use that language in a realistic environment, such as visiting Germany or France after learning German or French. If we teach them a curse word and don't identify it as a curse word, or don't say that it only is a curse word in southern France and in northern France, means something totally seperate, etc., then we have a problem. - SamE 14:12, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree entierly. The goal should be language use in a realistic enviornment which happens to include fairly frequent use of curse words. Of course it would be terrible not to identify them as curse words but I don't think anyone is suggesting this.Logicnazi 16:56, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think it is absolutely essential to add the curse words. First of all to get the same respect for a collaborative online project as with a more traditional medium you need to be more overly principled about your content. Since a wiki project, by its very emphasis on encouraging cooperation, makes people more aware that the individuals writing the information are just as fallible as they are. It might not be a warranted reaction but given this likely attitude I think it is a very bad idea to engage in anything that might even resemble censorship or subjectivity.

Furthermore on a more pragmatic note I find wiki books MOST advantageous because they include so many practical tidbits left out of more staid and traditional publications. Don't emasculate one of the major wikibook benefits just to avoid offending a few people. This is also pragmatically quite difficult in a wiki-text as these sorts of words are quite likely to be added by people who decided not to respect your nicely worded plea not to include curses. It certainly seems like a better solution to add a classy presentation of swears rather than let an immature teenager do it for you. At best you could create all the curse word pages and lock them empty but this will hardly stop people from adding links to these pages and asking why they can't edit them. Besides you now look like a ham-fisted censor instead of just happening to think these words didn't belong. Logicnazi 22:04, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This is a bad idea. We're not suggesting censorship as a solution, but rather not to mention curse words in foreign languages at all. It is a bad idea to censor material Curse words aren't at all 'practical tidbits', rather a hinder to our efforts. If people don't like it that we don't have curse words, that's what the discussion pages are for, to work out and resolve conflicts. If the general consensus is against curse words, but the user continues to persist, we can ban their IP address at worst.
I think you view curse words too harmless. Way more than 'a few people' are offended by curse words. Many people don't use curse words (I honestly can say that I've never used one in my life, spoken or written). As for realizing fallibility, if I, or someone else like me, read something with curse words, the 'likely reaction' is to turn away from the material/project: not a positive reaction. Instead of what you're saying, the likely reaction is negative. If curse words aren't presented, then no one cares, and if they do, that's what the discussion page is for. It's not like people are *begging* to add pages on curse words. 'Respect' for the project doesn't come at all from curse words, rather from not having them.
A question arises: What are curse words? Curse words vary degrees in English and foreign languages, so native speakers would be best to explain this. But the simplest explanation is a word that has a definition other than how one would use it and means something in that situation. For example, 'rats' is not a curse word because it doesn't mean anything in that situation.
Teaching curse words is not a benefit. We have to ask ourselves, "Do we want people to use curse words in other languages?" - SamE 04:16, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Look, whether you like curse words or not you have to admit they are extremely common parts of discourse. It is just foolish to think that because you don't happen to use curse words they aren't important. In fact someone who was completly unaware of curse words would have a great deal of difficulty understanding modern society, at the very least it is important to know the word is a curse word and whether it is a deadly insult or a friendly saluataion (I certainly call my friends fucker in a friendly manner on occasion...while in some cultures no doubt any use of a similar word is a deadly insult). Whether you like it or not it is pratically important to know what the curse words are and their cultural position.
As for the issue of censorship and respect. The notion that we aren't censoring the curse words but just choosing not to include them is just linguistic sophistry. I personally believe that including curse words is quite important (for a variety of reasons..some above some below) and you are straightforwardly advocating rolling back my edits if I was to include them. Let try that again, you are suggesting that some additions to this language book be prevented not because of factual inadequacy, stylistic issues or even for being offtopic (or do you deny that curse words are a commonly used and occupy a unique linguistic position) but simply because someone is offended. If this isn't censorship please tell me what is?
How about the notion that this will give us a negative image? I simply don't find it credible that a well-marked link to a curse word section would discourage many people from making use of the wikibook. The oxford english dictionary certainly puts in it's fare share of curse words with just as detailed information and even m-w.com has 'fuck'. These works decided the benefit of increase credibility outweighed the harms of a few offended individuals (and yes I really do believe it is few percentagewise). Personally, I think it is a much better goal to create the most informative/usefull work you can than something fuzzy parents let their kids read. Finally, I don't think this is information we can simply leave to the dictionaries (even assuming language dictionaries of that language carry swears). More so than any other class of words the meaning/usage of swears is context/phrase dependent.
Also, I really do want people using curse words (in english or otherwise). I think it makes language more expresive and colorfull not to mention increased usage reduces the flak people who do use them take. I respect the fact that other people may be offended by them and try to avoid them in public discourse (like here..except to discuss that word) despite the fact that I prefer using them. Those who are offended by curse words should return the courtesy but not trying to stop others from using these words in there conversations(by denying them education/knowledge about them). While one certainly doesn't need to rush out and put in swears in some begining language lessons a NPOV really does require that they have their own (well marked) link/pages.
The issue of curse words may not be that significat but the precedent advocated here is very dangerous. What happens when someone writes a wikibook about family planning and 'doesn't mention' (in the sense of rolling back updates which do mention) abortion. The example may be extreme but it really is quite similar to the arguments presented against mentioning curse words. Even more people may be quite offended by the mention of abortion. You might object saying that abortion is surely practically relevant to family planning, however those who want to leave it out would disagree. They would claim abortion is murder and is no more relevant to family planning than a guide about hiring hitmen to kill excess children would be. Just like the curse words issue a group wants to avoid presenting certain information because it is offensive and want to discourage people from acting on that information (i.e. getting an abortion/using curse words). Similarly there is a valid differnce of opinion (i.e. not a logical error but a differnce in basic value) over whether that effect is desierable or not. Consequently the two cases really should have the same solution and I certainly find the notion of wikibooks witholding abortion information troublesome. Logicnazi 11:02, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If we ever do mention curse words in language books, it should be debated on the talk pages for the writers of that wikibook, not here. Since curse words vary in how harmful they are and how often they're used, I think this discussion should be continued when and where they occur. If the writers/authors of the wikibook take a vote or something similar, and come up with a solution, that should be the way it goes in that case. - SamE 18:20, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that the deciscion of a vote of the project members should decide the issue. In so far as the question is 'should we go out and add in curse words' I agree this should be left up to the members of that particular book. If the question is 'should we role back curse word additions' I'm not so sure if it shouldn't be decided by the wikibook community at large. However, this is a differnt issue than the one we have been discussing (which since it affects many books seems reasonable to discuss here). How disputes about the correct practice are resolved is a very differnt question. For instance I would argue strongly that an ammendment prohibiting gay marriage is wrong and violates the basic principles this country was founded on yet I completly agree that it's adoption should be decided by a vote in congress and ratification by state legislators. In other words I am offering up reasons why any such vote should turn out a particular way. Logicnazi 02:01, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

WikiChongqing

This site is in chinese/japanese (can't tell which), which just look like question marks on older browsers. However, the URL is unexpected for a wiki. I'd say, keep the link out, unless someone who can read the language confirms it is a wiki.

Class contributions

Hello, I'm a teacher and would love to get my students to contribute here for credit. Any thoughts on how we can get students to participate as part of a class assignment?

  • Our sister project Wikipedia has developed a page to give pointers and keep track of school and university projects. The page over there can be found at w:Wikipedia:School and university projects. I did a search here but didn't find a similar page, so we might want to consider starting one. However, read wikipedia's page for the basic ideas. The most important thing is to have the students create user names, so you as the instructor can easily track their contributions. Gentgeen 00:41, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
    • Welcome to wikibooks! You can sign your username and current time using ~~~~. Glad you decided to have a project here. The students may wanna use their own psuedonyms for usernames, so I'd let them (it's also helpful for us to track who's who as well). To see a user's contributions, just access their user page and click on the "User Contributions" link on the sidebar. Remember to teach your students the basics - NPOV, dont vandalize, how to create links and such - first, just in case. Feel free to start anytime - the more users here, the better. KirbyMeister 19:55, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

See also Wikiversity and the tips for teachers section of the Wikipedia FAQ. There should be something like that on wikibooks, too...

Printing: Wikis for developing countries

The concept of Wikibooks is excellent, but to use Wikibooks in classrooms in developing countries is problematic: there are no computers. Is there a way to print an entire book? Then paper copies could be made and distributed to students. --Steve

Two things would help this: subdomains/categories for each book to define what's in it, and at least a way to print each page ("Printable Version") like Wikipedia had before MediaWiki 1.3. We also would have the problem of links being impossible on paper. See Wikibook Press, a printing suggestion. There will be many problems, though. Of course, most of our Wikibooks are not even close to getting done, so this is in many cases low priority. - SamE 17:31, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Languages

Languages: Editions in Other Languages

On this page, someone added (it looks like) every single language that is possible. Most of them get a "Wiki does not exist" error message upon clicking on them, so I was wondering if others think that should stay. How many languages, and which languages, is Wikibooks in (as in subdomains)? We need to update Template:Languages to show that. Is there a way to keep track of this? - SamE 15:07, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Languages: romanian Wikibooks

I'm sorry. Why were this two pages deleted: De ce manuale cu conţinut deschis? and Wikibooks:De ce să contribui? ? You could at least wait that they are copyed to the romanian version, and then delete them. Please revert the delete, and let them there for at least one week, because I'm not sure when I will have time to copy them, but be shore that I will notice you here then. Thank you.--Danutz

BTW. Please chnage in the main page the link to the romanian version, so it goes to http://ro.wikiquote.org .

"ro.wikiquote.org"? Do you mean ro.wikibooks.org? - SamE 03:06, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I mean that. Sorry. Can a sysop undelete the files I mentioned for a while, until I copy them to romanian Wikibooks? --Danutz

Main: Protect Page?

Wikipedia's Main Page is made up mostly of templates, and so therefore can be protected. Now that our main page is template-ified, I think it would be a good idea to protect it. Could an admin please do this? - SamE 18:16, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I was about to suggest that now. I just came here and found this. Reub2000 11:26, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Admins: Wikibooks:Administrators

Could someone please update this page? It currently has 12 sysops that have been sysops for a year now and Special:Statistics says there are 18. Who are they? - SamE 04:22, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sam, they are all listed at Special:Listadmins. Gentgeen 14:57, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll be updating the admins page soon. - SamE 18:04, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikiversity, and adding MusicML

I don't know whether I've overstepped the bounds of user participation, but I've created a School of Music in the Wikiversity, since I believe that's one area that should have its own school.

However, the reason I comment is that I think it'd be great for the wiki engine, if at all possible, be extended to support MusicML insertion into documents?

Relevant links: [1] [2]

Interviews?

For the US Government text book, I was going to ask some governor and senator's offices to let me interview their representee. Is this sort of thing okay? -- user:zanimum

YES! Just make sure that you understand the GNU free documentation license in case there are questions. --Waxmop

Automated Table of Contents

I forget how those things work! Is there a tutorial somewhere or at least an example page? I feel so foolish cuz not long ago I was using them. I have just spend quite a while trying to figure it back out and am not having much luck... Thank you! --Karl Wick 21:49, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Linguistics

I don't know where to post this comment, but I absolutely adore the Linguistics textbook on here and read it avidly. I hope you will all keep working on it! Thanks, anon.

I like it, too. You should put this comment is on either the book's discussion page, or on the talk page of the author. - SamE 03:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Promoting free textbooks, how to change the world

This is great! I am so happy to find Wikibooks, and to see it growing! The down side is the way I found it: After having a attending the "home and school club" (modern PTA) meeting for my son's elementary school and seeing the uphill battle of their fund-raising, I started thinking hard about how to cut costs in schools. Something that floated to the surface rather quickly was the textbooks - textbooks are not cheap. I very quickly thought, Open Source! Open source textbooks, compiled online by teachers, students, whoever, is the answer. Of course, getting these into elementary schools would be difficult (politics), but one might be able to break into community colleges and private schools...

So, as with any idea, I started searching the web to see if someone was already doing it. There's the down side of Wikibooks - it took me a little while to find on Google (searching on "free textbook" and "free college textbooks" - I ended up here following a blog link).

So, here's the point of my writing: This is a great project! We can change the world! Make education more affordable for everyone! We need to promote the heck out of this!!! But is what I'm describing part of Wikibooks' current vision? If so, what promotion activities are underway already? Who is the top Wikibooks Evangelist? I want to help! And if not, who do I have to convince? Since printed books will be a staple of educational institutions for a long time to come (until every student has a laptop), a long term goal would be to either publish printed docs through a nonprofit, or minimally make Wikibooks available (which they sort of are already, through the copyleft license) for printing - but I think there will need to be a way to readily download whole books (as PDFs perhaps).

Aerik Sylvan http://aerik.thesylvans.com/blog

(This is cross posted to Karl Wick's user page)

We desperately need to get better books made before we start any promoting. This site is not yet useful except in a few cases, and it certainly doesn't have any completed textbooks (there's Lucid dreaming, but that would never be taught, and High school extensions is going along pretty well) and if people get the image of a site of half-done textbooks we will keep that image for a long time and it would take a lot of effort to change it. We ought to leaave it for the time being.
I would like book-to-PDF too, but it's hard stuff to do. I could probably write something to minimally convert a page from here into (La)TeX but to get it all done is difficult. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 06:32, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've said this on Karl's talk page and on the staff noticeboard. I don't normally spam, but I'm really excited about this and so please forgive me for posting it here too. Wikmedia has secureed a grant from the Beck foundation for producing short books/magazines (anyway they'll be 48 pages long no matter what thery are called aimed at the 7 -12 year old age group. The books will be developed here on wikibooks before being printed and sold. (They'll be cheap because we only have to cover the cost of printing). If this takes off, and I'm pretty sure it will, it'll be a massive boost to wikibooks as a whole and may well mean that we can get print versions of other books up and running too. Soo come to meta wikijunior and join in the fun. We still need to decide on a title (Wkijunior is only a working title) and what the forst topic should be. (it looks like big cats is the top contender at the moment). Theresa knott 13:02, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Very cool stuff - I agree wholeheartedly about needing more completed works before promoting the site for public consumption ("come use these books"), BUT I think we desperately need more promotion for development ("come write books and change the world") - I am thinking of a campaign of posting flyers aimed at both students and teachers at junior colleges - making it clear of course of exactly what is being marketed (the opportunitiy to participate in writing books). Any thoughts?
The printing of books (not for profit) is a longer term goal, but I think it's appropriate to have a clear vision of that, and plan for technology and processes to support it.
Theresa, great news about the grant, and you're absolutely right, that is the perfect kind of project to springboard wikibooks as a whole - count me in. 16:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)- Aerik
Great! Do come to meta and help make the decisions that are needed to get the project off the ground. As for you advert idea. i thinks it's good. Do it thw wiki way though - put your suggeted text here Wikibooks:Advertising poster so we can all help you with the design. Theresa knott 16:52, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Okay, started! I think it would also be appropriate to continue discussions around the advertising poster in the discussion for that page? Thanks for setting up the page, and suggesting the communitiy help develop it - excellent! --Aerik 17:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hey, the philosophy wikibook is listed as 'struggling'. Are there any people out there who want to struggle with me on this one? At the moment we need authors who know what they are talking about, but hopefully soon we will need intelligent neophytes to assess how useful the work is. I'm working on the logic section mainly. This could even develop into an into an independent wikibook in its own right. We could end up having a whole shelf of wikibooks on philosophy, but perhaps that is a few years off yet. How do we get philosophy promoted from 'struggling' to the next category, whatever that is? --publunch 10:35, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Languages list ==--Circeus 01:34, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the classic skin, the languages for the main page appears at the top, so the actual content of the main page begins 8 lines later than I believe it should. If you take a look at Wikipedia's main page, you can see that they have a great solution there, with the "other languages" section at the bottom. In addition, this allows for users to see how many pages that encyclopedia has. Personally, I see only advantages- so why not set it up like they have there? -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 01:47, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Addisionally, the link to the Norwegian (norsk/no) version is wrong. I don't know how to fix this!

You sure it's wrong? Works for me... -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 00:47, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about listing languages by area? Or by Classification? --Circeus 02:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Most people don't know anything about the classification (Italian is under Italic -> Romance -> Italo-Western -> Italo-Dalmation) but perhaps areas would be good (Western Europe, Eastern Europe, South America, etc). r3m0t (cont) (talk) 07:34, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking general family grouping. say listing the romance language togethers, the slavic togethers, etc.--Circeus 01:34, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikibooks Featured on Main Page

Nobody will deny that there is an unsightly mess of a large number of Wikibooks (most of which probably don't even qualify for a 25% rating. I propose that the main page be locked like on Wikipedia so that only those who have power granted to them can add Wikibooks to the front page (ie. When the book has enough content to be worth mentioning it is advertised on the Main Page). Some of the worst examples of empty wikibooks that are listed on the front page:

And... Selected Wikibooks

The selected wikibooks is a great idea. But I feel that it takes up far too much room. There is a huge amount of space wasted to the left and to the right of the selected wikibooks.

Also, when I first joined Wikibooks there was one or two wikibook in each category of the selected wikibooks. I count up to nine now. Now that is excessive. Perhaps there should be some kind of waiting list to be added to the new & struggling; and the books on it are changed on a month, week or even daily basis. --Boit 00:15, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I pruned stuff which wasn't very new any more. Theoretically we could get stuff off the "Struggling" section by actually helping those books. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 08:50, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That's a good idea, in theory however not everyone has the knowledge or understanding to be able to help. For example, Introduction to Philosophy - I wouldn't even know where to start. I have never even used Linux in my life so thereofre I wouldn't be able to help in Linux-Compendium either. The same goes for the rest of the struggling textbooks.

Languages on the Main Page

Why are there links to different languages in the community section on the main page? Aren't these a bit unnecessary. There are links down the LHS of the webpage anyway AND when you first visit Wikibooks you are presented with a huge list of different language versions.

Done. -- [[User:Mkn|Mkn (Talk)]] 21:01, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh no not another suggestion!

Sorry, I seem to be posting the hell out of the talk page, but something else has bugged me from trying to browse the main page. There is so much wasted space around the Selected wikibooks area. Why can't we make a (perhaps red) cell in the table, put it above the community section which would mean there is more space for the huge number of bookshelves.

Today I just found out about Main Page/test started by User:Perl. I've been trying to edit it to resemble Wikipedia. What does everyone think about this layout?
Also the main problem is there's too many wikibooks now. So for the Main Page/test page, I removed the listing and replaced it with the Template:Bookshelves bar just under the welcome text. And just under this template I added a Template:Bookshelves (all) link which leads to a page displaying all the wikibooks in their bookshelves (in other words, moved all bookshelves templates from the current Main Page to a separate page). -- [[User:Mkn|Mkn (Talk)]] 02:04, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
On Firefox for Windows XP the tables are not displayed correctly at all. Under IE, the test page renders fine (though I feel it's too crammed, aesthetically). However, since the page does not display properly I've reverted it instead of first discussing my aesthetic objections.
In the following, let X be the green table and Y the "selected wikibooks" table. Properly displayed (as in IE) it would appear as: XY. Under Mozilla Firefox it looks like this:
 X_
 _Y

Where _ is just blank.

Perhaps we shouldn't redirect the main page (or radically change the layout) at all until more people have seen it (and testing has been performed on Mozilla by the designer). --MShonle 09:34, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Graded Readers

It would be really nice if there were a graded readers section where kind members might consider rewriting short stories and great works of a fiction and non fiction using Enlgish that learners might be able to cope with (at various levels perhaps). Or is there such an attempt going on already?--Timtak 09:16, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

no-table version

I've put together what I think is a close facimile of the main page without any tables at Main Page/css. Please check it out, to see if it works on your browser and system. Gentgeen 14:54, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It looks fine. Great job :) -- [[User:Mkn|Mkn (Talk)]] 14:17, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ok, I'm going to move it to Main Page (table free). Gentgeen 01:58, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Main page locked

Somebody locked the main page just yesterday or a few days ago. I don't see any post announcing or explaining this procedure. I think the main page still needs to be changed and is less than optimal (e.g. The first paragraph is almost repeated in the "About Wikibooks" box - what a waste of space! I thought about changing this, but now I can not without admin rights. Where can I apply for temporary admin so that I can change the main page? --Andreas Ipp 08:54, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for not discussing it, but I locked the main page after it became a target for vandalism, due to a current VfD debate. Once that is over, and our bruised ego friend goes away, then the page can be unblocked. Gentgeen 09:03, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Follow up, I've protected the main page again, but this time it is only protected from page moves. Gentgeen 06:37, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Study help desk" links wrongly

The link on the left bar, "Study help desk", links to Current events (which by itself is a redirect to Wikibooks:Bulletin board), instead of linking to the existing Study help desk. Either change the name or change the link. I'd prefer a link to a Wikibook community page, whichever this might be. (Wikiversity seems like a project on its own, and doesn't give much help on Wikibooks which is for all age and knowledge levels, not just University related - see e.g. Wikijunior as part of Wikibooks, but not of Wikiversity..). I'd prefer "Wikibook community" or just "Community portal", since this would give a familiar look across the wikis. (Study help desk seems related to studying problems, and not problems related to working at Wikibooks). --Andreas Ipp 09:09, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_1"