Talk:Learn Electronics

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Contents 1 experiments needed 2 This book already exists 3 some critics, positive ones ofcourse ;-) 4 layout/content ideas 5 Some content suggestions 6 AC measurements 7 New title?

[edit] experiments needed

This book is quickly turning into a book that you can read but not apply to anything, if you're going to contribute a chapter about a part at least put experiments demonstrating what the part does. --V2os 15:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC) this is a big problem for the electronics wikibook since once it gets to digital circuits there's no instructions about building a digital circuit.

[edit] This book already exists

You will be pleased to know that a substantial book on learning electronics already exists as Electronics. It would be best if you could merge any new content there. Thanks, (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 11:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I want to do something differnt than that book, as it has no hands on experience, and is full of many theories that don't need to be taught to beginners. There are also no circuits you can make in that book. 04:39, 16 July 2005 User:172.146.141.205

See Wikibooks:Duplicate articles policy. I still think that you should, at least, link your book in closely with Electronics. Your aim appears to be directly compatible with Electronics:Aim, but they simply have not written much of the basic hands on stuff yet, maybe you could help by writing it? (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 01:11, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking into it but it looks as it would be similar to putting a square peg in a round hole. Too many theories that don't need to be taught, it's just much better and faster to introduce things as the lessons advance and the new components/circuits are introduced. at least half of that stuff doesn't need to be taught until the end of the book, but it's introduced first.--V2os 04:09, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay, how about linking to the theory in Electronics whenever you need a theoretical explanation (i.e., instead of duplicating the explanation yourself), and making your book a series of practical tutorials. It's desirable to eliminate duplication within Wikibooks, because it allows electronics contributors to concentrate their efforts. You may want to add some links to the appropriate tutorials within LearnElectronics to Electronics, so that readers of Electronics can benefit from your efforts too. I'll remove the merge tag for now, but please keep Wikibook's duplication policy in mind while writing. Good luck. (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 05:08, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll try but i will do some explanation because i want the final product to be able to be printed out and used without the aid of a computer--V2os 00:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] some critics, positive ones ofcourse ;-)

IMO it's a good idea to write an beginners book on electronics. The other one is indeed pretty advanced (and I can know I've got a degree in it :-D ).
I don't know your background in electronics, but I would suspect you're either self taught or still learning. (writting about it is one of the best the learn it throughfully) The reason I suspect this is the part on Ohms law. You going over it pretty fast and this is the law that has more about it than what most people see. A good explaination requires some text, a little math and a drawing. The drawing is essential as it shows exactly how the voltage drop over a resistor appears. This is essential to comprehend this law completely. Most people don't think this is important.
An second point on this section is that you make it sound as if Ohms law applies to other components, which is not. Ohm's law only applies to resistors. Diodes, coils and capacitors do not follow this law. (For DC. AC is a differend thing. Capacitors and coild follow an extended version of Ohms law for AC.) --Patrik 17:04, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I am self taught, but will be attending a program at a vocational school (with classes in electronics) to complete my last 2 years of highschool. It has been a while since the last time i was being taught some very basic electronics, I really don't have a complete knowledge of this so I need people to fix errors like that of the Ohm's law section you mention, and help in writting the book. I'm just trying to set up a structure to the book, each chapter a new concept/part/equation is introduced and explained is what i'm trying for(except for the first few so you can start doing hands on stuff fast). I can't get my hands on a good electronics book, my local library is horrible for finding anything of use to you.--172.175.154.216 23:40, 16 July 2005 (UTC)V2os, forgot to log in.

I'll try to contribute as time permits. (I'm already contributing to 3 wikibooks, 2 of which I started myself). --Patrik 09:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] layout/content ideas

Seems you intent to seperate the theory and practice in different chapters. How about linking them closer? e.g. Explain the resistor, then follow with some hands-on experiment demonstrating Ohm's Law in practice, followed by some explaination why the measured values aren't exactly the same as those calculated. IMO small portions of theory followed by small experiments are a very good way to learn this material and it's easy to expand the book this way.
Also you should cleary note that this is about DC. AC differs very much from DC and IMO should be something like part 2 of the book.
Ohm's law is very easy to turn in a intresting demo, without expensive equipment. Kirchof's laws are harder to demo (the law about the currents in and out a node would need at least 3 current measurements, idealy at the same time).

Don't remember any of that, and i don't have any measuring equipment, or know how to use it, it would be nice if you could contribute something about this or find an article about it online and send a link (both how to use the equipment and the ohm's law demo).--V2os 03:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some content suggestions

I've had some experience with teaching electronics, but not at this level. The way the book is currently organised requires the reader to learn all of the theory before doing the hands on stuff. Maybe it would be better it interleave the two more closely.

See my bulky proposed changes to the contents here.

You get the idea... (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 06:43, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I like it. (makes me realize how little i actualy know about electronics at the moment.)--V2os 16:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I've started to organize the book like this.--V2os 20:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AC measurements

AC is a bit/lot harder than DC. Perhaps we should spend a chapter to it, before moving on to the active components? IMO it's more trouble to split up the AC and DC characteristics of e.g. a transistor than it is to introduce AC first and then explain the transistor. --Patrik 08:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can see, AC measurements are way beyond the scope of the book. Also, they would be very difficult to arrange without the aid of a signal generator and an oscilloscope. Yes, we could build a variable oscillator, feed it into the circuit under test, then use a small capacitor to store the peak voltage after rectification (that could be used to measure the peak voltage at several points with the aid of a multimeter). I think that anything more than a multimeter is a bit much to ask from any beginner.

I know that most tertiary courses in electronics simultaneously cover both the AC and DC characteristics of some passive and active components. But, I think that we can do them separately (with the AC characteristics far later, if we do them at all). With only DC (or very slowly changing voltages to measure), the BJT can be seen as a switch or current amplifier, the FET as a switch, the diode allows current to flow in only one direction, and the LED lights up with cool colours. Maybe we could get away with doing a simple oscillator with flashing LEDs, flashing at about 0.5 Hz, but that's about as AC as we can easily get. On the other hand, it would be great if we could do some tutorials for some of the advanced stuff in the Electronics book, that would bring the two books together nicely. But, this book is currently aimed at the very beginner. (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 11:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New title?

I've just been quickly looking at the basic material in the Electronics book. I think that we really need to limit the scope of this book so that it accomodates only the very beginner (i.e., people who don't know anything about electronics). Also, the title may be better changed to Beginning electronics (or at least Learning electronics, to fit with our naming conventions)? Tell me what you think, and I'll move the pages to the new name. (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 05:25, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

That may be a good idea. Perhaps we should keep this book as a page to link to all the electronics books at differend levels. Perhaps a second book covering the harder parts can be written too later and then a link to it can be added here? --Patrik 08:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, we could link to it at the beginning of the Electronics book to get people up to speed for the Basic electronics section. I suppose they could run in parallel to some extent though, but using a naive treatment of electronics that doesn't rely on describing what happens to electrons and other theory (I assume that's what V2os had in mind for this book). But, is it really electronics, or only electricity and magnetism? (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 11:25, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

This is probably going to be limited to basic electricity and (simple) digital electronics. The hardest subject would probably be the RC circuit. I would avoid magnetism as it's pretty complicated. I would save it for the more advanced book, possible together with AC. Probably we should cover resistors (ohm's Law, That other law to calculate the resistance of a wire), Kirchof, capacitors in DC and the RC circuit. For real electronics I'd say we could cover Boolean logic (easy to test on a bread board) and perhaps a bit on the specs of TTL and CMOS (measuring when the input on a logic gate switches from 0 to 1, that sort of stuff). I don't think I'll have to mention the "what is electricity/voltage/current" part as this is pretty straight forward that we start with such a chapter. For the math and theory: how about we'll add some of that as optional chapters? Either as a new (small) chapter outside the table of content (or how I'm supposed to call it) or as a link to the other electronics books?
Transistors can be covert as a switch, but it's hard to come up with a good introduction without using AC, also experiments would require an oscilloscope to be practical. --Patrik 15:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

All great suggestions Patrik, I think you have summed it up nicely. We'll see what V2os thinks when they get back. If only I'd spent as much time writing the book as discussing it, we may have already had part of a chapter. Unfortunately, I'm currently too busy to devote much time to it, but I'll help out where I can. (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 21:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I've put together a ruf TOC with some explaination. I'll add it here otherwise this page becomes pretty cluttered. I'll wait to see what V2os has to say about it, before writing anything real. --Patrik 11:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll be interested to see what you come up with Patrik. V2os' comments earlier seem a bit vague, and they don't have any measuring equipment, or know how to use it. So, that would limit our experiments a bit. But, I think we need to explain how to use a multimeter, otherwise we are limited to flashing (or static) lights for feedback. Maybe it would also be better to substitute LEDs (with roughly appropriate current limiting resistors) for the light bulbs, that would be far cheaper, and we could use the breadboard and a 9 V battery to run it (of course the LEDs would only work in one orientation, but the reason why could be explained far later, along with the reason for using the resistor in series). 12:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've just looked at your TOC, and it looks good to me. Maybe we should spend even more time at the bottom end though. It may be better to keep the entire book on one page to begin with, so your TOC could be expanded as it is. (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 12:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

More chapters on digital electronics? That part is going to be the most intresting part anyway. I guess Part one can be kept short and to the point (with most of it being fun experiments) and we can be more elaborate on the second part. V2os intended to use a lot of hands-on stuff, so we could use the experiments to introduce the theory. (boolean algebra in theory is pretty boring, but if we use a few experiments to demonstrate the methodes of boolean algebra, it'll be more intresting.)

I guess V2os is going to have a lot to read when he comes back ;-) --Patrik 12:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I hope we haven't got totally the wrong end of the stick. Hopefully this book doesn't step on Electronics toes too much, it would be a shame to have to merge (but, we could also call this book Electronics:Beginning electronics). (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 12:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Don't think the auhors of Electronics are going to have any problems with this wikibook. IMO Electronics is aimed at a college level, while this one would be aimed at highschool level. Our prerequisits aren't very extensive. The picture I've got of the content would require some knowledge of basic algebra, but little else more as we don't cover any AC related content and so avoid trigonometry, vectors, complex numbers and any more complicated functions. The hardest part would be drawing the function of a RC circuit and boolean algebra is pretty stand alone.
If/when we would start a simular book/part on AC then we'll going to need a bit more math, however this is still going to be limited to simple functions ( u = U * sin (omega * t + phi) would suffice for explaining much of AC), but we'll deal with that after this book is well on its way to completion.--Patrik 15:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Do not want to limit scope of book. I will be getting hands on stuff done starting in chapter 2.(sorry for leave of absence) I do want this book to go somewhat far (at least into remote control), and be aimed at high school students. I will be getting measuring equipment. if it were to go as far as all of you are suggesting it wouldn't be better than the books at my library. (the transistor is new in them!) give me some time to read this stuff over some more.--V2os 00:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I want this to sort of mirror what i'm going to be learning in school, and the classes that promise that you'll be able to create videogame consoles by the end of the class. (I realize I'm not going to be able to contribute too much more to this book since i don't know much about the subject.)--V2os 16:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

If you provide some sort of table of contents, we'll be able to fill in the parts you aren't familiar with. --Patrik 13:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

On Geocachernemesis proposed changes i don't know much (maybe anything) about 4,6,7, and 8. To be clear on the AC thing, yes I think we should be doing stuff with AC. (Also I can't find what TOC means and it's mentioned here a lot. could someone tell me what it means?)

Patrik and I thought that AC (e.g., audio signals, and not just mains) measurements would be too difficult, because they would require the use of an signal generator and an oscilloscope, and we felt that they would be far too expensive for beginners. Even so, there is plenty that can be done with only a multimeter. TOC means table of contents, and I actually prefer Patrik's to mine in some ways. I've also had second thoughts about the use of light bulbs and sockets in the experiments, because they are quite expensive. If we need a breadboard anyway, then why not use LEDs instead, they would be far cheaper?

Also, we should consider changing the title of the book (as mentioned above), and keeping the book on one page until it grows a bit more (i.e., limit the number of pages created). (_Donovan|Geocachernemesis|^Interact) 03:06, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

If you want to cover AC, it'll be much more theoretical. I've got course notes from a 4th year electricity (compares to high school) which covers basic AC in a quite simple way. It limits to single fase AC and simple AC circuits. (I also have college notes which cover it much more in depth, but those would be way too math-intensive). I've done a few experiments without an oscilloscope or signal generator in those classes, but these all came down to measuring voltage and/or current at particular intervals or in some special way. e.g. measuring input and output voltage/current of a transformer as to demonstrate that the product U*I remains constant in both coils. Or measuring the current in a circuit with a lightbulb to demonstrate the temperature dependent resistance of its filament (the wire inside of it).
But when it comes down to demonstrating frequency effects or phase, you'll need a oscilloscope.
Another thing you should keep in mind is safety. These experiments I mentioned use mains power which is dangerous. Especialy to people trying to do an experiment. You could say to use a transformer to make it safer, but not all transformers are really save, there is a variety which doesn't have 2 magnetic coupled coils, but use an AC voltage divider, these devices are cheap and dangerous for use in experiments.
To summerize the issues with AC:

• Expensive equipment. (oscilloscope, signal generator)
• Risk of using main power.
• large amount of theory without really room for experiments in between.
  

--Patrik 12:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like some very basic AC stuff, at least explain what AC means, and simulation of it, i think it probably should all be on one page for a while until it gets bigger. I agree with replacing the light bulb and socket with LEDs.--V2os 05:00, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The basic AC is pretty easy. I can fill it in later this week (as time permits). If you could provide a link to where I should place it. I personaly would place it at the end of the current TOC, something like "what is AC", followed by "simple AC circuits with resistors, capacitors and inductors" and then something on transformers, but not very theoretical, more practical oriented material. It's common to teach magnetisme along with AC, but IMO it would be way too theoretical for this book. The final version would contain a lot of graphics, but that isn't going to be in the first edits. Unless I can borrow some from other free sources I'll have to draw them myself or have other contributers draw them. But we'll deal with that when we get there. --Patrik 13:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

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I probably can contribute for very young beginners, even making it much too simple(?) on purpose. But it may duplicate some items somewhere else. I'm not going to search for any duplications with other articles, and leave that up to other editors, also to merge with other articles. Also, I don't yet know how to do diagrams, nor mathematical formulae - please feel free to add these to my contributions. Thanks. QUITTNER 142.150.49.166 18:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

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