Talk:Hungarian

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[edit] Stuff to update

[edit] Audio

Can anyone add audio to lesson one? It would be awesome to download pronunciations so new students could study them. It just takes a second and a cheap microphone that you probably have lying around =). I'd do it, but my Hungarian isn't good enough for an ideal pronunciation. ErikG 19:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I can and have made audio files, but apparently .wav is not an acceptable file format. They're at hpmaniacs.com/Other/audio, in case you're interested. Emiellaiendiay 05:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stuff to add

[edit] Present tense

Duh! This is needed, and we could roll that into basic endings like the accusative ErikG 19:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Join forces

I (FerKo) am trying to help, first attempt to add on audio of Hungarian sounds, others may follow. I am more inclined to follow a differnt path in the arrangement of the curriculum. We could discuss it when I am not at work. Cheers 155.192.0.234 10:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC) see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hungarian:Lesson_1

[edit] Overall plan

Hi, I'm interested in this project. I'm not a native speaker, but I am a language teacher and learner. I started thinking about the order in which I think Hungarian should be taught. I'm writing that into an overall plan, including the things I wish someone had told me early on! It'll probably take me another 2 or 3 weeks - I'll publish it here on the talk page for comment when I've finished. Gailtb 22:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My overall plan is ready

[edit] Rationale

Don't be daunted by the size of this! I don't have any expectation that more than the first few lessons will ever be written, but I wanted to make sure that things were in a logical order. It also ended up as a personal revision session - I had no idea I knew so much!

The following principles were important in the planning:

Grammar is ordered using the criteria of simplicity and usefulness. Of course these sometimes conflict, so this is just what I think will work.
Thorough practice is needed in the sound system. (Note, there is often no direct link between the grammar and the sounds in any lesson.)
Suffixes are introduced slowly to give a chance for them to be practised and start to become automatic

[edit] Suggested lesson structure

I've taken ideas from other language books such as Chinese (Mandarin) to give the following:

Dialogue /text - shows the language in context
Grammar /functions
Vocabulary
Sounds
Exercises

Although I mostly haven't filled in the columns for vocab and exercises, these are essential. Vocab without grammar can make for successful communication. Grammar without vocab cannot.

In order to be a textbook rather than just information in an encyclopedia entry, it's important to include examples and practice in each lesson. For example, lesson one could have example 2-line dialogues of exchanging greetings, etc.

[edit] Reorganisation

There was lots of stuff on the welcome page which was or should have been in lesson one, so I've moved /removed it.

I've also changed lesson one to fit my suggested structure, and made some changes for linguistic accuracy (eg vowel harmony is most definitely not grammar, nor is it unique to Hungarian).

[edit] My grammar questions - can anyone help?

1) I know the following suffixes use the oblique stem:

accusative, eg levelet, falvat, tavat
plural, eg levelek, falvak, tavak
1st sing possessive, eg levelem, falvam, tavam
2nd sing possessive, eg leveled, falvad, tavad
3rd singular possessive, eg levele, falva, tava

Is it used for any other suffixes, eg -n for 'on'?

== It depends on the noun type. You can use the same oblique, as you put it, stem to produce plural (levelek, kezek).

2) Does the object have to be singular for -lak/-lek or can it be plural? == No, you can say 'ismerlek titeket'.

3) I think there's a difference between English and Hungarian something like a singular noun is used when plural possessors each have one of something (eg 'a féjünk' = 'our heads'). Is this correct? Does it only apply to parts of the body or does it apply to anything, eg 'a tollunk' = 'our pens'? Or does it only apply in certain grammatical contexts, eg 'We all shook our heads.' == Plurality of the possessed object is marked on the object itself. Cf. Elvesztettük férjünket vs. Elvesztettük férjeinket.

4) When -ott/-ett/-ött are used for position at a place, what are used for movement to and from? (eg Is it Győrre and Győrről?) == Depends on the composition of the proper noun. E.g., if it contains 'vár' (castle), you may have to use -ra and -ról, but with Győr, you only use -be/-ből, unless you convey a different meaning (beszélgettünk Győrről).

5) Is -vá/-vé also sometimes used on adjectives to make adverbs as well as being used on nouns? == Yes. (Hasonlóvá, igazzá, naggyá).

6) What does -stul/-stül mean? == The 'associative' suffix, meaning 'along with', 'complete with'. Make sure to add the possessive mark in between. Cf. ház - a - stul (together with the house), férj-e-stül (together with the husband). [kfabricz@vnet.hu]

[edit] Detailed plan

Lesson no.	Dialogue /text	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds	Notes
1	Short dialogues for greeting, leave taking, etc	Greeting; Leave taking; Thanking; Excusing; Apologising; Calling for help		Intro to sounds; Word stress on first syllable
2		Present tense singular and plural of 'van'; Simple sentences with 'to be' plus adjective; Personal pronouns not required; Omission of 'van' when predicate is an adjective or noun phrase which means a characteristic, quality or state of the subject; Negation with 'nem'; No grammatical gender; 'ő' as gender neutral for 'he', 'she', 'it'; 'ő' is required when 'van' is omitted and there is no other subject; Yes/no questions; Repetition of verb to give short answer to yes/no question	hungry, thirsty, tired, sleepy, etc	Basic intonation for statements and yes/no questions; No diphthongs - each vowel pronounced separately	Need a more non-linguist-friendly explanation of when 'van' is omitted
3		'a'/'az' for 'the' (definite article) and 'egy' for 'a'/'an' (indefinite article); Word order in noun phrases - article, adjective then noun; Non-use of plurals after numbers and quantity expressions; No indefinite article when noun is used in general sense, ie when cannot be replaced by 'one' in English; 'kis' and 'kicsi'; 'két' and 'kettő'	Some common nouns; Numbers	Intro to vowel harmony within word (ie without suffixes): front or back, front rounded or front unrounded
4		Simple sentences with 'van' meaning 'there is'; Negation with 'nincs'; 'is' for 'also'; Use of adjectives as nouns	Buildings and places	Neutral front vowels; Vowel harmony in compound words; Vowel harmony in foreign words
5		-ban/ -ben, -nál/ -nél as positional suffixes on nouns; Suffix type: consonant initial and no change depending on stem; Citation form for suffixes is back vowel then front vowel; Word-final -a or -e is lengthened before suffixes; 'ez' and 'az' as demonstrative pronouns; Question words; Use of 'van', eg for talking about 'where'	Compound nouns	Vowel harmony in suffixes with 2 variants; a/e and á/é as pairs for vowel harmony; Intonation for questions with question words

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Sounds	Notes
6	Common quantity expressions; -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n as positional suffix on nouns; Suffix type: link vowel -o/ -e/ -ö on stems ending with consonant; Citation form for suffixes is front unrounded then front rounded vowel; Citation form for suffixes is consonant stems then vowel stems; For certain back nouns, the link vowel for all such suffixes is -a	Vowel harmony in suffixes with 3 variants; o/e/ö as triad for vowel harmony (plus a for certain stems)
7	Singular possessive suffixes for singular nouns (-om/ -em/ -öm/ -m, -od/ -ed/ -öd/ -d, -a/ -e/ -ja/ -je); Suffix type: link consonant -j on stems ending with vowel; Link consonant also inserted for certain nouns ending with a consonant; Awareness of oblique noun stems - slightly different form used with certain suffixes; Oblique noun stem is used with -om/ -em/ -öm/ -m, -od/ -ed/ -öd/ -d and -a/ -e/ -ja/ -je	gy	Oblique stems need to be learned when the noun is learned - seems best to learn the 3rd singular possessive
8	Plural possessive suffixes for singular nouns (-unk/ -ünk/ -nk, -otok/ -etek/ötök/ -tok/ -tek/ -tök, -uk/ -ük/ -juk/ -jük); Suffix type: link vowel -u/ -üon stems ending with consonant; Use of 'to be' plus possessive suffix to mean 'to have'	r; u/ü as pair for vowel harmony
9	3rd sing is citation form for verb; Infinitive (-ni); Difference in verbs ending with long vowel + t or 2 consonants (infinitive); 'tessék' + infinitive for request; 'lehet' + infinitive for possibility; 'szabad' + infinitive for permission; 'tilos' + infinitive for prohibition; 'kell' + infinitive for obligation; 'kellene' /'kéne' + infinitive for advice & suggestions; 'muszáj' + infinitive for strong prohibition	Long and short consonants
10	Indefinite present tense singular; Verb stem almost always ends with a consonant; 'tudni' + infinitive for ability ('can'); Where a second verb is used, eg with 'szeretni', 'akarni', it is always the infinitive form; 'szeretnék' + infinitive for 'I'd like to' + verb	Differentiation of a and o	In this unit only intransitive verbs are used because the object suffix has not been introduced

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds	Notes
11	-ot/ -et/ -öt/ -t for object suffix on nouns; Irregular noun stem is used with -ot/ -et/ -öt/ -t; Explanation of definite and indefinite noun phrases (cf definite and indefinite articles); Use of indefinite tense for intransitive verbs and for indefinite objects (stated or unstated); 'kér' for offering and requesting things		Long and short vowels
12	Definite present tense singular; Use of definite tense for definite objects (stated or unstated); Definite article used for noun in general sense		Differentiation of ö, ü and u
13	Difference in -ik verbs (1st and 3rd singular indefinite present); Difference in verbs ending with -s, -sz, -z, -dz (2nd singular indefinite present, 3rd singular definite present); Difference in verbs ending with long vowel + t or 2 consonants (2nd singular indefinite present); -ul/ -ül for certain adverbs; Suffix type: vowel initial (-u/ -ü or -ú/ -ű)and no change depending on stem; 'tud' and 'ismer' for 'to know'		Differentiation of ő, ű and ú
14	(Indefinite) present tense singular and plural of irregular verbs 'megy' and 'jön'; 3rd person plural forms used for vague subject (cf English 'they'); -ba/ -be, -ra/ -re, -hoz/ -hez/ -höz as movement towards suffixes on nouns; Parallelism of these suffixes with -ban/ -ben, -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n, -nál/ -nél		Fake front vowels in vowel harmony, eg híd
15	Telling the time for the quarter hours; -kor for time when; Suffix type: invariable; -tól/ -től and -ig for time from and to; -adik/ -edik for ordinal numbers; -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n for day or date when	Time expressions	Differentiation of ty and cs	Teach dates as a pattern rather than explaining they are genitives

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Sounds	Notes
16	Telling the current time for times other than the quarter hours; Talking about a future or past time for times other than the quarter hours	t, d, sz and z as dental not alveolar; ó/ő as pair for vowel harmony	The structure for another point in time differs from the current time for times other than the quarter hours
17	Indefinite present tense plural; Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants (2nd and 3rd plural indefnite present); 'mindenki', 'minden' ('everything'), 'mindenhol', 'mindig' /'mindenkor'; 'valaki', 'valami', 'valahol', 'valamikor'; 'senki', 'semmi', 'sehol', 'soha(sem)'; Use of indefinite tense for indefinite pronoun objects	ny
18	Definite present tense plural; Difference in verbs ending with -s, -sz, -z, -dz (1st, 2nd and 3rd plural definite present); Suffix type: Uniquely, most 2nd plural forms have -o and -e as a pair for vowel harmony (-tok/ -tek), also link vowel -o/ -e/ -ö; Other small verb irregularities, eg üdvözöl, érez, végez (present tenses)	No reduced vowels - vowel length is independent of word stress	In English, long vowels cannot normally occur in unstressed syllables so these are difficult
19	Partially irregular verbs: 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'eszik', 'iszik', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (infinitive stem differs from indefinite present 3rd singular); Infinitives for 'jön', 'megy' and 'van'; Partial overlap between verbs 'van' and 'lesz'; Possessive suffix comes first when combined with another suffix, eg 'lakásomban'; -ról/ -ről for 'about'; 'az egyik' for 'one of' and 'the one'; 'más' for 'different'; 'egy másik' for 'another' and 'a másik' for 'the other'; 'a többiek' for 'the others'; 'minden' for 'each', 'every' and 'all'	Long vowels in unstressed syllables	For vowel practice, always include examples in unstressed syllables as well as stressed syllables
20	Explanation of topic and of sentence focus; Negatives and question words always take the focus; Position of focus in a sentence: a) Focus of sentence is positioned immediately before the finite verb b) Verb which is focused is at beginning of sentence c) When 'van' is omitted, focus of sentence is at beginning of sentence Word order in a sentence: topic + focus + finite verb + other elements; Postpositions	Sentence stress on topic and focus	There may be some mistakes in the information on word order.

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds
21	Subject pronouns; Use of subject pronouns to emphasize subject or possession; 'ő' not 'ők' used as pronoun for 3rd person plural when emphasizing the possessor; -lak/ -lek as 1st singular verb suffix with 2nd person object; Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants (-lak/ -lek); Use of indefinite tense for 1st or 2nd person pronoun as object (whether stated or unstated); Use of definite tense for 3rd person pronoun as object (whether stated or unstated)		Vowel quality distinction for e and é
22	Prefixed verbs (verbs with particles); Literal meanings of verb particles; Use of literal verb particles with movement suffixes, eg 'bemegyek a házba'; Particles can be split from the verb; Particle is repeated to give short answer to yes/no question; Sentence focus: a) When prefixed finite verb has focus, particle is on the verb (ie particle occupies the position immediately before the finite verb) b) When any other part of the sentence is focused, the particle follows the verb c) When prefixed verb is an infinitive used after another verb, particle and verb are split around the finite verb (eg be akarok menni)		Vowel quality distinction for a and á
23	Subordinating conjunctions and referents in complex sentences; -ás/ -és as noun from verb; Partially irregular verbs: 'jön', 'megy', 'van', 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'eszik', 'iszik', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (special stem for word-formation affixes); -ka/ -ke/ -cska/ -cske as suffix on noun for diminutive		Differentiation of i and í
24	Indefinite past tense singular; Difference in verbs ending with -l, -r, -ly, -j, n, -ny, -ad/ -ed with 2 syllables (3rd singular indefinite past); Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants or 1 syllable with -t (long stem in past); 'másvalaki', etc; 'bárki', etc; 'akár', etc; 'ilyen' and 'olyan' for 'such'	-ság/ -ség (adj>abstract noun), (noun>abstract noun)	Differentiation of o and ó
25	Definite past tense singular; Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants or 1 syllable with -t (long stem in past); 'tetszik', 'érdekel', 'sikerül' and 'jó' as impersonal verbs	-at/ -et (verb>concrete noun)	Differentiation of u and ú

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds	Notes
26	-ból/ -ből, -ról/ -ről, -tól/ -től as movement away from suffixes on nouns; Parallelism of these suffixes with -ban/ -ben, -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n, -nál/ -nél; Use of -ban/ -ben and parallels for place names outside Hungary; Use of -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n and parallels for most Hungarian place names; Irregularities in endings for Hungarian place names: a) Use of -ban/ -ben and parallels for certain ones b) Use of -ott/ -ett/ -ött for certain ones -nál/ -nél and parallels for 'at the house of'; -ig as suffix on nouns for 'as far as'; -ék as suffix on nouns meaning a family group; Object pronouns	-ul/ -ül and -ít for intransitive and transitive verb pairs (adj>verb)	Differentiation of ö and ő
27	Indefinite past tense plural; -talak/ -telek; Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants or 1 syllable with -t (long stem in past); Time expressions with 3rd singular possessive suffix and positive past tense to mean 'ago'; Adverbs from verb particles (eg 'kint')	-d and -szt for intransitive and transitive verb pairs	Differentiation of ü and ű
28	Definite past tense plural; Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants or 1 syllable with -t (long stem in past); Partially irregular verbs: 'jön', 'megy', 'van', 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (3rd singular indefinite past gives the pattern); Partially irregular verbs: 'eszik', 'iszik' (1st and 3rd singular indefinite past give the pattern)	-i (place name>adj), (noun>adj)	zs especially word initial
29	-ok/ -ek/ -ök/ -k as plural suffix for nouns; Oblique noun stem is used with plural suffix; Plural suffix comes first when combined with another suffix, eg 'lakásokban'; Singular noun is used for paired body parts (eg 'lábom'); Singular noun is used when plural possessors each have one (eg 'a féjünk' = 'our heads'); -ak/ -ek/ -k as plural suffix for adjectives; Suffix type: link vowel -a/ -e on stems ending with consonant; Link vowels used for plural suffix with adjective stems ending in -ú/ -ű and -i as well as consonants; Plural adjectives used in predicate; 'vannak' and 'nincsenek' for 'there are'; -on/ -en/ -ön/ -n with numbers and quantity expressions for 'there are'	-os/ -es/ -ös/ -s (noun>adj)	c and dz
30	-os/ -es/ -ös/ -s as suffix on numbers to form numeric adjectives; -val/ -vel as suffix on nouns meaning 'with'; Consonant assimilation with -val/ -vel; Suffix type: initial -v with consonant assimilation; 'együtt' often used alongside -val/ -vel	-talan/ -telen/ -(a)tlan/ -(e)tlen (noun>negative adj, opposite of -os/ -es/ -ös/ -s)	l as dental and 'light' in all positions	Long consonants should be practised following both long and short vowels

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds	Notes
31	Suffixes and consonant assimilation with 'ez' and 'az' as demonstrative pronouns; 'ez a' and 'az a' as demonstrative adjectives; Reduplication of suffixes and consonant assimilation with 'ez' and 'az' as demonstrative adjectives; Reduplication of postpositions with 'ez' and 'az' as demonstrative adjectives; -szor/ -szer/ -ször as suffix on numbers and quantity expressions meaning how many times; -nta/ -nte as suffix on nouns of time periods meaning how often; -nként as suffix on nouns for 'per'	-tlan/ -tlen (verb>adj)	long and short r
32	Future expressed with 'fog', with 'lesz', with 'majd' and with present tense when time reference is already clear; -ért as suffix on nouns meaning purpose	-ó/ -ő (verb>adj cf present participle), (verb>noun)	long and short l
33	Constructions for duration of time: a) 3rd singular possessive b) -ig c) -ra/ -re d) -ot/ -et/ -öt/ -t e) óta	-ott/ -ett/ -ött/ -t (verb>adj cf past participle)	long and short j
34	Subject and object reflexive pronouns; 'egymás'; Use of definite tense with reflexive pronouns and 'egymás'; Two forms of genitive, eg 'Kati lakása' and 'Katinak a lakása'; Usage of the two genitive forms; Awareness that dates are really genitive forms	-ható / -hető (verb>adj)	long and short p, b, t, d, k and g (stops); ú/ű as pair for vowel harmony
35	-nak/ -nek as suffix on nouns meaning indirect object; -féle and -fajta as suffixes on nouns for 'a kind of'; Use of indefinite tense with most question words as objects; Use of definite tense with questions with 'melyik' and 'hanyadik'	-hatatlan/ -hetetlen (verb>negative adjective)	longand short gy (and ty?)	I'm not sure that long ty ever occurs

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab	Sounds
36	-an/ -en/ -n as suffix on adjectives to form adverbs of manner; Link vowels used for adverb suffix with adjective stems ending in -ú/ -ű, -ó/ -ő and -i as well as consonants; Use of adverbs with verb 'to be' and 'van' not omitted; Prepositional suffixes combined with possessive suffixes, eg benned; Postpositions combined with possessive suffixes, eg alattad	-ú/ -ű/ -jú/ -jű (noun>adj)	long and short f, v, sz, z, s, zs (fricatives)
37	Relative clauses and referents; Use of indefinite tense with relative pronouns as objects; Possessive pronouns; -é and -éi for abbreviated possession, eg Katié	-ós/ -ős (verb>adj)	long and short m, n, ny (nasals)
38	-abb/ -ebb/ -bb as suffix on adjectives for comparatives; Irregular comparatives; 'mint' or -nál/ -nél to say what is compared; 'még', 'kicsivel', 'sokkal' and 'jóval' as degree qualifiers for comparisons; 'egyre' + comparative for '-er and -er'	-os/ -es/ -ös/ -s (adj>adj)	long and short c, dz, cs, dzs (affricates)
39	'minél ... annál'; 'ugyan-' for 'the same'; 'leg-' as prefix on comparative to form superlative; comparison of adverbs; 'mint' for 'like'; -ként for suffix on noun meaning 'in the capacity of', 'as'; -képp(en) for suffix on noun meaning 'by way of', 'as'	-ol/ -el/ -öl/ -l (noun>verb)
40	Indefinite subjunctive singular; Definite subjunctive singular; Subjunctive singular and plural of irregular verb 'jön'; Partially irregular verbs: 'megy', 'van', 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'eszik', 'iszik', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (3rd singular subjunctive)Negation of subjunctive with 'ne'; Use of subjunctive for commands; Use of subjunctive for requests	-oz/ -ez/ -öz/ -z and -ozik/ -ezik/ -özik/ -zik (noun>verb)

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab
41	Suffixed infinitives with kell and other impersonal verbs	-kodik/ -kedik/ -ködik (noun>verb)
42	Indefinite subjunctive plural; Definite subjunctive plural; Difference in verbs ending with -s, -sz, -z, -dz (all subjunctive forms); Difference in verbs ending with long vowel + t or consonant + t (all subjunctive forms); Difference in verbs ending with short vowel + t (all subjunctive forms); Difference in verbs ending with -st or -szt (all subjunctive forms); Use of subjunctive in 'hogy' subordinate clauses expressing purpose; More uses of the subjunctive: a) in hesitant questions with 1st person singular subject ('Shall I ...?') b) in suggestions for joint action with 1st person plural subject ('Let's ...') c) forwishes (eg 'May it be so!')	-kodik/ -kedik/ -ködik (adj>verb)
43	Indefinite present conditional singular; Definite present conditional singular; -nálak/ -nélek; Preference with 'jobban szeret' or 'inkabb'	-olkodik/ -elkedik/ -ölködik (noun>verb)
44	Indefinite present conditional plural; Definite present conditional plural; Partially irregular verbs: 'jön', 'megy', 'van', 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'eszik', 'iszik', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (3rd singular conditional); Difference in verbs ending with -ít or 2 consonants (all conditional forms); Ways of making requests and giving commands: a) straight infinitive b) tilos + infinitive c) (nem) szabad + infinitive d) tessék + infinitive e) subjunctive, sometimes with kérem f) conditional	-oskodik/ -eskedik/ -ösködik (noun>verb)
45	Indefinite and definite past conditional singular and plural; Types of conditional sentence; 'szoktam' etc + infinitive for habitual action	-odik/ -edik/ -ödik (adj>verb)

Lesson no.	Grammar /functions	Vocab
46	-hat-/ -het- infix for ability and permission; Partially irregular verbs: 'jön', 'megy', 'van', 'lesz', 'tesz', 'vesz', 'hisz', 'visz', 'eszik', 'iszik', 'alszik', 'fekszik' (-hat/ -het infix 3rd singular); Plural possessive suffixes	-leg (adj>adv)
47	Indirect questions with question words; Indirect yes/no questions; Use of 'vajon'; Use of -e in direct yes/no questions
48	Partially irregular verbs ending in -ó/ -ő (ie vowel rather than consonant stem); Other small verb irregularities, eg mosakszik, emlékszik, ugrik, fürdik; Use of subjunctive in subordinate clauses after verbs expressing orders, requests, suggestions, wishes, permission, etc; -stul/ -stül
49	-at-/ -et- or -tat-/ -tet- infix for causative; -vá/ -vé as suffix on nouns with consonant assimilation, meaning 'become' or 'turn into'
50	-ó/ -ő as suffix on verbs to form participle; -ott/ -ett/ -ött/ -t as suffix on verbsto form participle; -andó/ -endő as suffix on verbs to form participle; Participles are not used as predicates; -va/ -ve as suffix on verbs to form adverbs; -va/ -ve adverb used with 'van' for meaning similar to present or part participle in English

Gailtb 00:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Grammar questions

Hi! Short answers for the questions in the 'Grammar questions' section: 1.) The nouns with -n:

Usually, they use the "normal" stem…, eg levélen, falun;
- but there are some exceptions: eg tavon (not *tón)

Some other suffixes (cases) (like the sociative case, distributive case, etc.) also use the oblique stem.

2.) I'm not really sure I understand this. If -lek/lak is used to form the "Subject:1th sing; Object:2nd sing/plur" case^¹ of a verb, the object can be plural (eg nagyon szeretlek téged = I love you /sing/ very much; nagyon szeretlek titeket = I love you /plur/ very much)

3.) You're right, it's 'a fejünk', not a *fejeink. It may also apply to other things (like tollunk, kárunk, eszünk). There may be some exceptions though, but now I couldn't mention any. :-)

~~4.) Yes, it's Győrre and Győrről, Pécsre and Pécsről, etc.~~ (Sorry, I didn't notice that you were talking about "movement". The correct answer is in the #Re: Győr section. --194.152.154.2 00:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

5.) -vá/vé is used on adjectives (as well as on nouns), but I don't think that it's used to make adverbs.^² Stupid examples:

"A Head&Shoulders /sampon/ széppé varázsolta a királynő haját" [széppé = szép (adj.) + vé] → "Head&Shoulders /shampoo/ made the Queen's hair /look/ beautiful";
"A boszorkány békává változtatta a királynőt" [békává = béka (noun) + vá] → The witch turned the Queen into a frog.

6.) -stul/stül: It is used to form the w:Sociative case, and as you can read in the enWP article it's now considered obsolete. An example: "Tartsa meg a házát, udvarostul, az ezer aranyat meg ráadásnak." → "Keep your house, together with the yard, plus the thousand red golds /money/."

^1,2: I'm not an expert in grammar, so I don't know the correct terms for these (not even in Hungarian). :-)

--194.152.154.1 00:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Győrre/Győrről

In response to question 4.) above: both "Győrre" and "Győrről" sound rather strange to me (in this sense), though I wouldn't call them wrong. "Győrbe megyek" or Győrbe költözöm" sounds a lot more natural to me. Similarly, "Győrből jövök" or "Győrből származom" is the form in my idiolect. "Győrre" is of course the correct form when saying for example "Győrre gondolok". Let me add that I'm a native speaker living in Hungary.

Elekmathe 14:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good insight is not enough :(

The plan seems alright (though I don't speak Hungarian and I merely know a little). Now, the problem is it looks like nobody cares. Something has to be wrong with Hungarians and I've no idea what that might be. It's amazing for how long they haven't put the slightest effort to EXPAND this Wikibook. Maybe they just don't want foreigners to learn their native language? Isn't it great when your mother tongue is spoken by ten million people in your country and understood by approximately a thousand or so peasants in the remotest parts of Northern Russia? Oh, yeah, DEFINITELY!! As a Bulgarian, who encounters no difficulties when communicating in countries such as Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosna and Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Russia, I'm really amazed at how this people appear to treat the topic. Albeit not the best example, the Bulgarian Language Wikibook could give you an idea at how you should appreciate your language. I realise you probably hold Hungarian in high esteem yet I can't tell that from your Hungarian Language Wikibook. In this regard I beg you to endeavour to improve it! MarkovV09 12:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Győr

Hungarian place names ending in -m, -n, -ny, -j, -r, -ly, take the -ban, -ben, -ba, -be, -ból, -ből suffixes.

[edit] Re: Good insight is not enough :( ... but polemics are even worse

Ah, please, refrain from the polemics. This wikibook is not excellent, so that must mean that Hungarians (every single one!) do not care about their language! Ridiculous. Maybe people who care about the survival of Hungarian are working to establish and maintain Hungarian language schools for children where the language is under threat of extinction or in decline - Romania (Transylvania, Moldova), Serbia, Ukraine, etc.

But they do not do these things. So there is some problem with the Hungarians indeed (just look at the stance of the Hungarian Wikipedia sites.) I try to help you (I am native) but maybe there are three or four people here who are Hungarians. So far I was doing the Swedish wikipedia, because I thought that there are a lot of Hungarians here - so proud as they are of their knowledge and so few they share. That is what's ridiculous... Svenskafan 21:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not many Hungarians know that the Wikibook project even exists. And even if they know, few are trained to "teach" Hungarian as a foreign language. --194.152.154.2 00:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Someone adept in grammar??

hi,

I started expanding Hungarian Wikipédia and Hungarian-related articles in foreign Wikipedias a month ago but nowhere experienced such negligence. It's outrageous that such a great and widely appreciated language doesnt have a proper wiki language book... really. Anyone - be native or not - who is adept in grammar to join me in expanding this stub? - Tylop 15 July 2006

Well I started to revamp this book if someone who considers himself/herself a linguist decides to check its correctness, I'd be very glad - Tylop

[edit] Omitting "van"

Hungarian/Lesson_3#Omitting "van" I'm not a linguist just a Hungarian, but are you dead sure, that we use the substantive verb (van) in 1st person. I don't say Én éhes vagyok, but simply Éhes vagyok.. And the same applies to 2nd person, too: Éhes vagy. (or Éhes vagy? or Éhes vagy! :-) ). I just ask before correcting, because it is so well described there, that maybe there is a similar rule but the example is wrong and I misunderstood. Do you guys agree that we (nearly) always omit "van"? - User:Totya 2006. Oct. 4 16:47 UTC

  "Éhes vagyok." - It's not (the 1st person of) "van" that is omitted, it's the word "én" (I) that is missing in that sentence...

[edit] Pronunciation

Please upload pronunciation of single words to Commons. They will be used in Wiktionary. But please do it right: examples in commons:Image:Hu-viszontlátásra.ogg and commons:Image:Hu-szürke.ogg. --Derbeth ^talk 09:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)