Talk:German/Lesson 2

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We could use a photo illustrating the conversation in Gespräch 2-2 ~ Das neues Mädchen. One of a young couple talking in a social setting; even better, with a short, long-haired brunette in the background - Marsh 03:56, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Would the translation for spielen be play, as is on the page, or the infinitive to play? Lord Emsworth 02:35, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think spielen is the infinitive, I can play should be Ich kann spiele. Maybe Thomas can clear this up. Etothex 04:48, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think it is a matter of how you want to present verbs. I originally had them as "to play" (which is correct), but it is also correct I believe to simply list the english verb that spielen represents: play. The vocabulary is not a direct translation list, but a list of words in German from the excercise and what they mean in that context) in English. I have two text books and a large Dictionary in front of me and one text gives the verbs thus: spielen - to play; whereas another textbook and the dictionary (New Cassell's) list them thus: spielen - play. - Marsh 05:11, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. I looked up spielen on LEO and I got the infinitive 'to play', with(present tense)

ich 	spiele 	 AKLL OF THESE ARE "play" IN ENGLISH
du 	spielst 	
er/sie 	spielt 	
wir 	spielen 	
ihr 	spielt 	
sie 	spielen

but then babelfish/altavista translated 'I can play' as Ich kann spielen, so I don't know what's correct. I suppose since you know more German than I do that you're right. :) Etothex 08:39, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Yes, kann spielen is correct:

ich       kann spielen
du        kannst spielen (formal: Sie können spielen)
er/sie/es kann spielen
wir       können spielen
ihr       könnt spielen (formal: Sie können spielen)
sie       können spielen

The formal "Sie" is captialized.

Some other forms with the infinitive:

ich        muss   / darf   / soll   / will
du         musst  / darfst / sollst / willst
er/sie/es  muss   / darf   / soll   / will
wir        müssen / dürfen / sollen / wollen
ihr        müsst  / dürft  / sollt  / wollt
sie        müssen / dürfen / sollen / wollen

And some things (negation of the above) which are different:

ich muss        I must
ich darf        I am allowed to
ich muss nicht  I don't need to
ich darf nicht  I must not 
ich soll        I should
ich soll nicht  I should not
ich kann        I can (I am able to, I am allowed to)
ich kann nicht  I cannot (like above)
ich will        I want to
ich will nicht  I dont't want to

--Vulture 09:37, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well, I'm saying either way of presentation is correct. Not giving the English "to play", but instead using "play" is just a matter of personal preference. My very big German dictionary does not present English verbs as "to xxxxx" in the German to English translations. - Marsh 09:44, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the "to" is just a confirmation (clarification) that it is the inifinitive. The dictionary usually only lists irregular forms, so it's somewhat reduntant (although my dictionary says "to" ;). --Vulture 09:53, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Fräulein was used instead of Frau to refer to an unmarried woman. It's no longer used since the 60s or 70s. It's rather infrequently used to address a waitress. Otherwise it has a humoristic or ironic meaning. --Vulture 07:53, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hey, that's when I learned German! What is "Miss" now? Anyway, certainly go in and change anything you see to modernize the German. Really appreciated! - Marsh 18:41, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Fräulein was replaced by Frau, there is no special "Miss". You might use it you translate something english and "Miss" (instead of Mrs) is important. But you might also simply use "Miss" in this case. --Vulture 09:19, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hard to believe a culture would dump a word implying youthful beauty (Fräulein) for a word that has a more (IMHO) frumpy connotation (Frau). Did the young people simply start calling "chicks" --> "Fraus"? Or was there always a different set of colloquial expressions, and Fräuline went out with the Miss, Mrs., Ms. trends as in the US? - Marsh 17:34, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC) Along the same lines, would changing the sentence in Gesprach 2-2 >> Helena: Sie ist hübsch, wenn man kleine Mädchen mit langen schwarzen Haaren mag. to >>Helena: Sie ist hübsch, wenn man kleine Fräulein mit langen schwarzen Haaren mag. put more of an edge on her jealose reply to Karl? That is, could one translate Fräulein in this case as "girl (tart)"? Or is there a word that would be more suitable (or is Mädchen just fine)? - Marsh

It was considered inappropriate to see if somebody is married in the name (the "title"), especially if it's only used for females (i.e. no "Herrlein"). "Mädels", "Mädchen" is more like "chicks". "Schlampe" might do for Helena (*). My dictionary gives "slut" as translation.

(*) to say, not to be - "Zicke" (nanny goat ;), cow, bitch, prude, silly thing) might better characterize Helena. I don't think those translations are right though. --Vulture 08:42, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

For now I can leave it at "mädchen" I don't want her attitude to be too obvious: A more subtle "oh yeh, if you like that kind of girl" is what I'm aiming for - Marsh 16:27, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In German: Lesson 2 I've changed one "Fremder" to "Fremde" and another one to "Fremden". Both are nominative plural, and I don't know exactly why they differ, but I'm quite sure of this because I'm a native German speaker. It probably has something to do with "fremd" being an adjective. "Der Fremde" is a noun, but the endings are the same as those of the adjective: "fremde Leute" (="foreign people") but "die fremden Leute" (="the foreign people").--El 15:57, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ok, Marsh. I'm not sure if it's necessary to introduce reflexive verbs in the first lesson. You could avoid it by saying: "Heinrich trifft Karl. Sie sind Freunde." -- Hansm 18:38, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Of course, it's (almost) right to say "Haben Sie Herr Standish schon angetroffen?". But I feel, the word "antreffen, angetroffen" is pretty difficult for the first lesson. You could say "Haben Sie Herrn Standish schon getroffen?" Anyway, this is more common.

Or how about "Haben Sie Herrn Standish schon gesehen?" - Note: Actualy, "Herr Standish" stands in the Dativ, here. Nevertheless, many Germans would also say "Herr Standish" in colloquial language.

Since you want to give a lesson about pronouns and the 2 forms for the 2nd person, I would try to keep the rest as easy as possible. The sentence "Aber verstehe ich richtig, dass er zu Besuch ist?" has a relativ sentence. Wouldn't it easyer just to say: "Ist er zu Besuch?" -- Hansm 18:51, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Simplifying the early lessons is always a better idea. I will implement changes when I get the chance. Danke! - Marsh 05:06, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, I have done some simplifications and adapted the list of vocabularies. I hope, it's not too much against your initial idaes. -- Hansm 00:27, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Danke sehr - Marsh 01:58, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think there's a little problem with "heißen" in section "Grammatik 2-3": It's only used in a passive meaning like it's said there: "Thus heißen can best be translated as 'to be named' or 'to be called'." But the 4 examples demonstrate an active meaning of "call/name". This would be translated as "nennen" in German, so the examples really may make it clearer, but they are wrong... or at least have a quite archaic sound ;) - Monsi 17:59, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I believe there are a number of German nouns that make sense in the present tense in German, but are not so easily or singularly translated into English. English would never say "I name Eric" for "my name is..." - But if you are saying German would not any more really say "Ich heiße Erick" but....what (?) "Ich nenne Erick?" Still the same non-correspondence between German present tense and English. Please clarify; is it that heißen is really only used in the passive? - Marsh 05:44, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, heißen is only used in the sense of "to be called". It used to be used like "jdn etw. heißen"(to call sb. sth.), but that usage is archaic, dating back to the 1920s or so I'd say. "nennen" requires the reflexive pronoun if used to refer to oneself: "Ich nenne mich Judith", but that's not really common when introducing oneself, it's like saying "I call myself Judith". "nennen" is what we use to say "to call sb. sth." nowadays though, e. g. "er nannte ihn einen Idiot" = "he called him an idiot".

I was not happy with the way the lesson was going using heißen—too complicated for so early in the text, and even the examples come from sentences that have since moved deeper into the book. I will rewrite and drop heißen here; but it or nennen will show up sooner than latter. Are some of the examples with heißen "modern", or all "archaic" - Marsh 17:10, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is a lot more going on here:

The line about 'to be' refering to the use of present continous makes no sense at all. 'Heißen/Nennen' (Heißen is wrong as we know, substitute with 'Nennen'and it works). But nevertheless, 'Nennen' needs a passive construction similar to its closest English equivalent 'to be called xyz'. Continous does not! come into it. "Die Firma wird Trans-Global genannt." -> "The company is called Trans-Global" Both passive voice.
Contrary to the commentary there is a different way to express 'is called'. It takes - surprise - the verb 'heißen' only with a change of subjects: Forget the 'They' and a passive voice. It is rather "Die Firma heißt Trans-Global." Nice, clean and easy.
What's the deal with 'Um!-Global'? Proper names, especially of Latin origin, only get the worse for translation. Trans-Global sounds like a good German import-export firm. There probably is one for real just around the corner!
Concerning Company = 'Gemeinde'. 'Gemeinde' means either 'parish' (religious group) or 'district' (local bureaucratic entity). I would go for 'Firma'.
'Die Geschäftsmänner'. Thought long and hard about it and the conclusion is, that maybe with pc and the rest of it, the plural of 'Geschäftsmann' is now 'Geschäftsleute'. We just don't use pure masuline plurals anymore, even if they happen to be all male.
I will quickly nip over and correct 'das! Vereinigtes! Königreich'
Somewhere I changed 'friends' = 'Brüder' into 'Freunde'. To call a mate your sibbling is theoretically possible in a colloquial setting (a bit like Hey Bro'). For the beginner, it could only be confusing.
There is also a problem with 'die Frau' = 'Ms.' That is just confusing vocab practice because 'die Frau' = 'the woman'. That does not convey the meaning of honorific adress. You have to cut out the defnite article. Better then to learn it as a phrase than as an ambivlent single word.

It's even worse for the male form: 'Der Herr' without anything else indicating the use as title/honorific would actually refer to god.

That's it for the moment.

Floflei6

OK. Fix what you regard as archaic (a lot of these words come from LEO which has no systyem for indicating what is currently acceptable and what is archaic). I'll change the Herr und Frau as you suggest. - Marsh 17:42, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to LEO, it is "Vereinigtes Königreich" - marsh 18:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Vereinigtes Königreich" without articel, but "Das Vereinigte Königreich ...

[edit] "Das ist richtig." rather unusual

In Germany "Das ist richtig" is mostly used as "That's correct" as a teacher says to his pupil ("Did I make a mistake?" - "No, that's correct"). But here it is used twice in unusual situtations:

"Ist er zu Besuch? - Ja. Das ist richtig." should be simply "Ja." or "Ja, er wohnt zur Zeit bei mir." or "Ja" with another additional information.

"Zu viel ist zu viel. - Das ist richtig." should be "So ist es.", "Da haben Sie Recht." or something like that.

Obviously such subtleties reflect (among other things) changes in the use of words/phrases over time. I have no problem with using your suggestions - marsh 18:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] studieren

"Today we study German." would rather be "Heute lernen wir Deutsch." To study means "studieren" or "lernen" - but in German the two words are not the same thing. "Studieren" is what you do at a university - usually for a couple of years (even though we tend to drop out or change our subjects quite often // studieren can as well mean to examine thoroughly) jacs --Jacs 01:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Considering that the lesson here is going from English to German (from a story about University studies), it complicates things to substitute the "more correct" lernen - so the implication is simply that "today we study German (at the university)". I do not see the need for a change? - marsh 05:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)